Has the Jewish Community Scored an Own Goal?

Following a report in the SA Jewish Report that Judge Richard Goldstone has been barred from attending his grandson’s barmitzvah, the SA Jewish Board of Deputies and the SA Zionist Federation have issued press releases claiming that the entire issue has been misinterpreted and misunderstood.

Whilst there may have been merits in protesting the Judge's appearance at the synagogue, the entire affairs seems to have been handled badly, with an absence of a consistent story to press, which only seems to have been considered as an after-thought.

This episode was always going to turn ugly, and without being in a position to comment about what actually transpired, I can only say that somewhere along the way it seems that a trio of our community leaders have managed to screw this thing up.

The community is being blamed for “barring” Goldstone from attending a bar mitzvah when in fact all that was planned was a protest outside the synagogue. Goldstone looks more and more like a victim of an intolerant Jewish community which has excommunicated him because of his political views. The media get a great story and our enemies get an abundance of ammunition to deflect attention away from their intolerance and onto ours.

I’m not saying that managing this episode was going to be easy. Still, I expect more. I expect better management of the finer details such as the handling of the press. The stories from the various representatives don’t seem entirely consistent and the response from the SAJBD – who weren’t even involved in all of this – was late, trying to limit the damage after it had been done.

Perhaps I have discounted the impact the protest would have had. It’s a decision that would not have been taken lightly and could have led to all sorts of precedents such as making protests outside of synagogues fair game. On the other hand, I can’t say that Goldstone doesn’t deserve this form of humiliation. After all, he delivered a report to a dictator-friendly organisation, that is bug-eyed nuts with Israel, which effectively rewarded Hamas for terrorism.

How will the handling of this situation impact the community? I think it results in a broadening of the groups that sit on both the extreme right and extreme left, and the squeezing out of the liberal Zionist centre which seems to be disappearing.

Internally the response has been supportive. In fact, around the synagogue-attending folk, there is a sentiment that the leadership should have done even more. But the view that you are not welcome at synagogue if you don’t support Israel, held by many who oppose our official leadership, has now been strengthened, albeit deceitfully since the reality of the situation is different from that which has been peddled in the media. Of course, these folk know exactly what makes Goldstone a unique case, but they won’t acknowledge it. And why should they when our official leadership fails to acknowledge the rising intolerance that is bubbling up in certain sections of our community?

On the other hand, must we constantly worry about how we are portrayed to broader South Africa? Only we can understand the real harm that Goldstone has done to Jews around the world, so only we can understand why it might makes sense to protest his appearance at the synagogue.

But is the sense of retribution worth the cost? These are the types of decisions I am glad I don’t have to make.

Herewith the letter distributed on Friday last week by the SA Jewish Board of Deputies.

Dear Community Member It has been widely reported in the media that Judge Richard Goldstone has been barred from attending his grandson's barmitzvah as a result of pressure from certain sectors of the Jewish leadership. While it has not been involved in this matter, the SA Jewish Board of Deputies was concerned that it would turn into a divisive issue within the Jewish community, and has therefore carefully investigated it to establish the correct facts. What has emerged is that, contrary to what many media reports alleged, at no time was Judge Goldstone prohibited from, or even requested, not to attend the barmitzvah ceremony by any organisation or individual. Rather, this was a decision voluntarily taken by the Goldstone family and the other respective parties. Certain senior Jewish communal and religious leaders were certainly involved in the discussions around the topic, but in no way did they attempt to dictate to or otherwise pressurize the family into arriving at their decision. Unfortunately, the matter is being widely misrepresented and misunderstood. To assist us in forestalling any further unpleasantness, we would appreciate it if you could circulate this communiqué to others who you think will be interested. The SAJBD strongly believes that diversity of opinion in our community needs to be tolerated and respected, whether it emanates from the left, right or centre. At the same time, the right to freedom of expression needs at all times to be exercised with sensitivity, with due regard to the appropriateness of the forum and occasion. Taking into account, with due sensitivity and understanding, the feelings of others goes a long way towards preventing unnecessary conflict. Wishing you all a Shabbat Shalom. ZEV KRENGEL NATIONAL CHAIRMAN

Comments

[Benjamin-sa]

What has been forgotten in all of this is the grandson. I am all for free speech and protest, but a barmitzvah is not one of them. Ever. The protesters are punishing this young man and his family.

If you want to protest, go ahead, but there are more appropriate forums and places to do that. Aside: lets keep religion and politics separate.

[Steve]

Whilst I think it's really up to the Goldstone family to protect the grandson and shouldn't really influence the SAZF's decision making, I agree that the bar mitzvah - even the synagogue service - should be treated as a private affair and left alone.

The more I think this over the greater the level of disbelief I have in how the leadership fumbled this affair.

Surely there are other places where they can stage a protest against Goldstone.

I feel completely let down by the leadership on this issue.

[Empress Trudy]

A Bnei Mitzvah isn't a private party it' a communal event. If the family wanted a private party they should have arranged one. Otherwise they don't get to irritate everyone else anymore than if they demanded to serve shellfish.

[Fred]

Just as there are many Jews calling for Obama to be killed, many are eager to kill Goldstone. There is no safety for Amalek anymore.

[Richard]

The IDF did some indefensible things - indisputably. Goldstone had the courage to officially report on them. However, it isn't the actions of the IDF which are now being held up as damaging to Israel and Jewry, but Goldstone's actions? A clear case of shoot the messenger, no? This whole situation is the exacerbated by the disingenuousness of the participants involved. If they didn't pressure him, why did he elect to not attend his grandson's BM?

[The pil]

Richard you know this for a fact that the IDF did some indefensible things. You know this because of what was in the Goldstone report, a report that has been so severly crticised and is not cedible. It is for this reason that Goldstone is not welcome.

[Lawrence]

The SA Jewish leadership for once did not screw up, it needs to be made clear to Goldstone that he is persona non grata. Anti-Semites love Goldstone, the only kind of people who would pity him are anti-Semites. That's why he has widespread support and sympathy from among the SA public and anti-Semitic SA media, it's really not that difficult to understand.

[Robin]

Avrom Krengel should be relieved of his position. This is the most disgusting thing I have heard of for a long while. I live in Sydney and the matter is being hotly debated here. How dare Krengel make a statement that it's right to protest outside a synagogue, when he stipulates on YouTube last year that those who support Hamas have a right to protest, but have no right to interfere with prayer. This situation has made the South African Jewish community look terrible in the eyes of the world and there is nothing to gain from this. Krengel should resign with immediate effect. Sis

[HeSaves]

I agree this has been handled badly. But Goldy is milking the situation as are the open shuadas. We look bad. I think we would have looked better had we done a peaceful protest and not made it look like we barred him from attending.

Robin, you right, there is nothing to gain from this but I dont think the protest would have actually disrupted prayer just like the PSC protest at Limmud last year didnt disrupt lectures.

[The pil]

It is in complete distaste the protest outside a shull. There were other ways to say that he is persona non grata. For example take out an advert in the Jewish report or in the shull news letter that we disaprove of what was said in the report. This way the point is made in a dignified manner.

However one thing has been missed in this debate is Achmat's cynical use of this incident to attack the Chief Rabbi. For someone who respects human rights he does not have musch resepct for the Chief Rabbi's human rights.

[Lawrence]

yeah pil you are right in fact, it is easy though with this back and forth to lose sight of the fact that Goldstone is what he is, the useful idiot of the Jihad, let's not take our eyes off the ball and that's what's happened here.

pil, Achmat is an anti-Semite so what else to expect, so naturally his problem is with the Chief Rabbi, not the Jew-hating UN's respectable frontman in the international war against the Jews.

OT Happy birthday to Israel, hopefully we make it to 63, it won't be easy, what with the UN, Iran and its bomb, Hezbollah, Syria, Hamas, Fatah the moderate terrorists, and Obama the Chamberlain wannabe and then there is the largely indifferent apathetic Diaspora (esp American Jews) and even the fifth column within Israel too (who here has been keeping up with the Anat Kamm affair and Ha'Aretz?).

[HeSaves]

" For example take out an advert in the Jewish report or in the shull news letter that we disaprove of what was said in the report. This way the point is made in a dignified manner."

> > Great Idea!

Dont forget Zachie's surname is Achmat. He hates Jews. Look at his treatment of SAUJS man Ilan Solomons who even the Palestinian ambassador seems to like but Zachie thinks he is a cold harted racist pig.

Zachie is a false SA hero.

[Yisrael Medad]

From afar, while a synagogue service is best, there could have been other arrangements. Yes, there was pressure but the truth is that the family made a decision, their decision: their son's Bar Mitzva was more important than the kavod of the grandfather. We should ourselves honor that decision.

[Levi Eshkol]

Sis Chief Rabbi shameful decision not to deal with family is clear in Goldstone's letter in today's Business Day.

The Chief Rabbi has a moral obligation to uphold the kavod of the commmunity. How can he advocate and if not, how can he not attempt to stop a protest on Shabbat! and outside a Shul! Let Avrom Krengel and whoever else wants to, protest within their Constitutional rights anywhere, outside his home or hotel.

To bring this kind of protest of political emotion to a religious event, a bar mitzva is upsetting and made worse that it is outside the shul on a Shabbat!

Surely the Chief Rabbi could have acted more responsibly.

[Steve]

Thanks for the link Sam.

[H]

The community has every right to exclude Goldstone. The real bungling is that the leadership have retracted their position. The position should have been defended, Jews who feel that it is within their rights to slander and endanger the Jewish nation will be ostracised. Last weeks Parsha - Lashon Hara - Exile! Dont be frightened to defend what is right!

[ndv]

If tearing away chunks of the community who take different positions on any political issue is “right” you will find this embattled and demographically threatened community in ruins very soon. This is the biggest blunder leadership has made, possibly in the history of SA Jewish communal life.
A commission of enquiry representative of all members should be set up to figure out who is responsible for this fiasco and why, and make recommendations for replacing the individual office holders in question.

[Brasilla the Zionist]

I think we like to get inflated heads, look into our torahm and then use it to decide how to treat a situation. But its all narcissistic crap. The plans of protest were ill conceived and we all look like intolerants k*nts now.

Well done leaders!

[Levi Eshkol]

I sense great divide

[shaun]

Goldstone himself played the. "I am a Jew" card:
In an interview with CNN he said” As a Jew, I have an even bigger duty to investigate war crimes.”
Funny I though all judges have that duty, why does his religion make him more special than others?
Perhaps it has to do with the Jews history of suffering? In that case I would argue that Jews should always support their own community. Just as Jewish history is filled with suffering and tragedy brought on by other nations, many of these tragedies were in fact aided by dissidents of the Jewish community.

Protesting outside a place of worship may be in bad taste, but it is certainly legal.
But putting picket lines aside,
Perhaps Goldstone was also aware of the fact that even without protestors, his mere entrance into the Sandton Shul will cause a significant disturbance to his grandsons Barmitza. Would the choir members all agree to sing? Or would they be allowed to step down? Would the Rabbi agree to give the Goldstone an aliyah? What reaction will the Shul members have to the negative or affirmative of these dilemmas?

And while we are on the subject of Quotes, before we continue to milk these allegations against the SA Jewish leadership perhaps we should to a little more research and find out exactly what happened. To Quote Goldstone about his own report: “I wouldn’t consider it in any way embarrassing if many of the allegations turn out to be disproved.”

[Benjamin-sa]

It is only getting uglier out there, just browse the Twitter traffic for an idea. Foobar.

[H]

I certainly dont go with the idea of protesting outside a Shul on Shabbas, ridiculous concept. When the authentic Jewish leadership, the Beth Din and the Chief Rabbi, make a decision regarding any individuals behaviour which affects the community, within halocha, then we, the members of this community are obligated and obliged to support it! For me the SAJBD and SAZF are not authorised nor competant to speak to such situations.

[Benjamin-sa]

Updated news: Goldstone to attend grandson's bar mitzvah as Zionist groups end feud . Good news and the best resolution. There still needs to be some inward looking reflection, on the part of anyone who thought, protesting a bar mitzvah was a good idea.

[Levi Eshkol]

A great victory for Jewish morals, values and progressive politics in South Africa.

A great defeat for conservatives, the megalomaniacs of community structures and Avrom Krengel and the SAZF who buckled under the pressure of 'their' community and international consensus.

[shaun]

Get off this Jewish morals crap. We are a people who are commanded to burn criminals, stone adulterers and kill gays.
By western standards this doesn’t sound very moral.
Unless you are talking about the kind of Judaism that picks, chooses and then reinvents religion to make feel better?

[RF2]

I wouls like to second Shaun on this.
We don't really know what happened. The Jewsih report is unreliable at best 0 from personal experience they have the jounalistic integrity of a fruitfly. That said, journlistic integrity is one of the great oxymorons of our time.

People are throwing names such as Beth Din, an Jewish leadership around, condemning them etc. According to what I read - no such leadership wanted to ban Dick. It was the shul. The zionist def wanted to protest (I'll get to that later) and so it was looking preety embarassing for him to walk in. The article itself said he had said in a telephone interview he had agreed not to come. Implying some element of choice. The choice between embararasing his family by having half the shul walk out on his arrival (their democratic right) or to save them and not attend. There was never and "ban" on him.

Regarding the demonstration. I really hope Avron was not involved. I have met him and he really seems like someone with an IQ larger than his shoe size. This idea has got to be one of the dumbest ideas in JHB Jewry history. It is inappropriate for Shabbat, it forever legitimizes protests at shuls on Shabbat, it draws unwanted attention to the community and has not possible benefit whatsoever. Whatever you think of Dick, this was just plain silly.

Regarding the community's right to "prefer" that he does not attend their shul. Those of you who read the Hebrew Israeli Press may have seen an intersting article today on an internal investigation into how commanders are scared of fullfilling missions for fear of losing soldiers. One of the side issues addressed was Goldstone. Very senior officers were quoted as saying that in future we are going to have to chose between (heartwrenching stories on the front page and reports such as Golstone" For those who don't understand. We will have to use far less firepower, very little artillary and airforce and restrict the rules of engagement so that many of our own will almost definitely be killed - in order to prevent accusations the likes of which are in Dick's report. I personally think this is not true - the world will hate us regardless and even if we march our soldiers into Gaza city with nothing more that water pistols and pamphlets asking them nicely not to shoot, there will still be accusations and useful idiots such as Dick Goldstone. But this is irrelevent - there are now many people who believe that Golstone type reports can be avoided if we sacrifice Jewish blood and so Dick has now very tangibly endangered Jewish lives. Those people of Sandton Shul have every reason to feel revolted by the presence of this person. I wonder what would be if everyone in the shul to daven somewhere else A real possibilty). I doubt the Goldstone family will have enough for a minyan with just themselves, and without 9 men besides the bami boy, there will be no barmi. Let Dickie digest that for a while

[Levi Eshkol]

Perhaps you are right, let me correct my previous post:

A great defeat for conservatives, the megalomaniacs of community structures and Avrom Krengel and the SAZF who buckled under the pressure of 'their' community and international consensus.

[Steve]

Actually, RF2, that is a great idea. A boycott rather than a protest.

[Benjamin-sa]

Yeah, a boycott, great way to get out around looking like loud petulant children, the silent treatment. That will teach the bar mitzvah boy for choosing his grandparents so carelessly.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Benjamin

what do you think is a reasonable way for the community at large to express their disgust at Goldstone?
What would you suggest, assuming the community views it as a RELIGIOUS betrayal - how do you think they should reflect this, if at all, in a religious setting?
I assume you don't think that their should be no consequence for his actions?

[RF2]

i was not suggesting a boycott, I was saying that there is a fair chance that a largr part of the community may, as individuals, exercise their right to get up and walk out, or not to come at all. That would be very embarassing for all the Goldstone family, especially if there is no minyan. I therefor think that for the boy's sake Dick should not come. It is not reasonable to expect the members of Sandton shul to sit there with a man who has essentially lined up Jews for the killing and do nothing just because his grandson is innocent in this. The members od the shul have a right to be disgusted and not to be offended.

Steve, community mass action at a shul can only come back to haunt us and will achieve nothing. It is sad that the ZF attempted to go this route.

Benjamin, refusing to sit in a Jewish house of prayer and community centre with someone has has endangered the lives of Jews and disconnected himself from the Jewish community is not petulant.

[Benjamin-sa]

I have always been proud of the jews as a thick skinned, intellectually combative, argumentative lot. The joke, if have three Jews in a room, you have four arguments. If we cannot sit down and rationally argue with someone as mild mannered as Richard Goldstone - himself a Zionist - then we are in real trouble. We have lost a cherished part of our intellectual tradition, and are descending down into the darkness of a middle ages mentality. If you socially ostracize all your critics, you are going to live in a world where your ideas are never challenged and therefore never examined, and that is very dangerous.

As regards the bar mitzvah, there are days where you put aside personal issues for someone else. There are numerous other times and places where you can criticize Goldstone - without involving his family.

This is not a right left conflict, it a reasonable crazy one. Just read Rabbi Shmuley Boteach's post Condemn his report, but welcome Goldstone I would geus you would agree with almost everything in this except for this opening paragraph:

I was horrified to hear that there were South African Jews objecting to Judge Richard Goldstone attending his grandson’s bar mitzvah. Blocking a fellow Jew, let alone a grandfather, from a family’s religious celebration because of his opinions on Israel is disgraceful. I recall once that the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that any Synagogue that bars a fellow Jew from entry ought to be shut down. We’re not Hamas, Hezbollah, or Fatah. We don’t summarily execute compatriots accused of collaborating with the enemy, as these terrorist organizations do to innocent Palestinians. We don’t character assassinate them either or banish them from our communities. Rather, where fellow Jews, like Goldstone, are harsh critics of Israel, we show them respect and deference and then destroy not them but their arguments in the cold light of fact and reason.

[The pil]

To Benjamin. I may be wrong but it is not the Jewish Community that is unwilling to have a debate, it is the Judge. At the time of the report I think there were many letters written to the man that went unanswered. But I agree with your broader point.

Also can anybody tell me where the idea that there was going to be a picket outside the Shull arises. Was the plan of action of the SAZF ever agreed. I mean the article said that the Judge wanted to avoid any embaressment to the family- this could have arisen any number of ways for example by not being called up to the Torah.

[shaun]

Ben, your last post was informative and Boteach does make a significant point.
Two troubling issues that I am wresting with are:
1, The commission would have found Israel guilty regardless of Goldstones participation, yet he still chose to join. I cannot understand how someone who claims to be a Zionist would CHOOSE to have his name forever be synonymous with Israel bashing.
2, Was Goldstone ever told that he is barred from attending the service?
The SA Jewish report used the word barred in inverted comas two weeks ago and this seems to have casued all the fuss, but was this actually the case?

[RF2]

Ben

Two issues. \First, I agree that no shul should ever bar someoone that is not dangerous from entering. But I also feel that people are free to not come oir walk out if his presence offends them. Theis is not a difference of opinion that helps our culture thrive - this is a man who accused us of murder and has placed our lives in very real danger. I believe that he should not be barred from the shl but if he has common sense and wishes to avoid embarrasment he should not attend. I do feel though that he should not be given an aliyah. There i no honour due to this man from the Jewish community. Attend, we won't stop you, but expect us to roll out the red carpet.

[Leora]

The community should show RESPECT and TOLERANCE of this Goldstone inidividual. To discourage him from his grandsons barmi, is a disgrace. I'm interested to find out would the Chevra Kadisha bury Goldstone as a Jew? What about openly gay Jews? What about Jews who support the Meretz Party in Israel etc.
I also think its unhealthy for the SAJBD and Zionist Fed to be run by 2 brothers, with the Chief rabbi, being a cousin. surely their are other leaders in this country?

[RF2]

We're all cousins Leora.
1) What has his burial got to do with anything. He is still Jewsih and will be buried as such. How is treated in life though is a function of how he treats his community.
Please explain why Golstone deserves this respect you speak of?
Openly gay Jews do not harm (at least physically) the Jewish community, therefor this is also not relevent. Likewise with those who support Meretz.

Question. Did you just think of every contravertial issue in the Jewish world and jot it down on this post without passing it through the Makes-Sense filter in your brain?

This is a case of a person who relased a report accusing us of being child killers after we defended ourselves with more consideration for civilian casualties than any other armed conflict in history. This reort has directly threatened the State of Israel and endangered many of its citizens. There is not amount of respect or tolerance due to such a person nor are any of your examples comparable. A more accurate comparison would be to Betzelem or Peace now activists. One fundamental difference being that many of these do not have the legal education that Dick has and so do not know what they are perverting. There is no disgrace in not wanting to see him at shul, barmi or not. The disgrace is him showing his face in the Jewish public.

What confilct of interests is there in 2 brothers running thses 2 independent organizations? Are you scared that they won't tell each other off when one makes a mistake. Sunshine, thats not their job. The board of deputies and the ZF are not policemen. They are there to promote the country's jewish community and israel respectively. Now you can argue that neither is doing a sterling job, but you'll need a bit of intellectual gymnastics to explain why that is a function of their having the same parents.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

I'm with RF2, that doesn't pass the "think before you type" test but anyway:

1) I can see why you might want to say he deserves respect, although I would disagree, but "tolerance"? have you even thought about what that means? Tolerance doesn't mean not voicing an opinion.

2) If you're so interested in the Chevra's M.O. why don't you write them a "respectful" and "tolerant" letter instead of mouthing off on a blog about something you're clearly ignorant about.

[Leora]

Before I reply to your twaddle. I looked up on RF2 and RF1, on your responses to other blogs, you are probably the same person, but more importantly, the way you use this blog to talk to your cousins is a disgrace. It's one thing arguing a subject with another, its another thing, using insulting language to get your point across.
Go look in the mirror, and ask yourself am I a nice person.

Goldstone did not attack his community. He did not attack the faith, he did not attack Hatikvah, he did not attack the Torah.
He attacked the behavior of the IDF, who you think are not answerable for their actions, they are not the "army of Hashem". We are always, ohr la goyim, in this globaly televised world the IDF needs to behave; like US troops in Iraq or Guantanamo have to behave.
Do u think the IDF did not use white phosperous on the children of Gaza?
Why not lift the blockade on the innocent Palestinans, for food, and medicine.

I do agree that Israel is always on a hiding to nothing, but thats why Israel should be more circumspect in their actions. Let journalists into Gaza, co-operate with the commission, what has the IDF got to hide?

I agree that Israel had every right to retaliate against Hamas, for too long Sderot was missiled, and Israel should deal with the Iranian nuclear threat, but fight with moral standards.

On the issue of the 2 brothers, its just a poor show on the leadership in SA, that a guy in his 30's and one in his early 40's, hold the power in SA Jewry. Where are the leaders? In Australia I fear.

[shaun]

Leora, I was intrigued by your question of brothers leading our community…
Other than the mere fact that they are both successful, willing to lead, have a deeper grasp of local community issues, and they were elected by the participating members of the bodies they represent. I see no reason why they are in their positions of leadership.

Are we not all worthy, isn’t the entire congregation holy, why do you (two brothers) elevate yourselves above the community?

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Leora,

I don't see placing the life of a hostile civilian population over the life of your soldiers as "ohr lagoyim". I doubt you'll find that's the torah way either. and while on the topic, I suggest you do some serious research into the Torah concept of Ohr Lagoyim and while you're about it some Torah Laws of War before you continue pontificating.

I don't care much for what some anti-semites in Geneva say is a fair way to fight a war - and I care less for a fool who will listen to testimony from proven liars claiming someone violated those rules.

On principle I reject your argument that the IDF must behave like the US Army, but even if that were true the very existence of a Goldstone report is a contradiction to the principle, and moreover, his "findings" indicate that the IDF is held to ridiculous standards.

As to your point of who Goldstone "attacked". Are you seriously trying to argue that the IDF is an amorphous group of thugs running around in uniform with no connection to the State of Israel, its people and its religion?
Are you suggesting that if we bash the IDF and "distance" ourselves as nice Court Jews away from those nasty thugs in green then maybe the nice people whose favour we curry will leave us be (and come for us last!)?

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

oh, BTW, I just had a look in the mirror and the answer was "no". Just like Bullard with his racist label and Steyn and his islamophobe label (or whatever it was) I now feel liberated and will begin to speak my mind.

Thank you Leora.

[shaun]

I finally go my answer.

It appeared on a left wing Jewish Blog: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/04/29/alan-dershowitz-on-the-goldstone-bar-mitzvah-talking-out-of-both-sides-of-his-mouth/#comments

“the leadership of the South African Zionist Federation (not “a small group of protestors”) promised protests at his son’s bar mitzvah ceremony. YOu [sic] can argue till you’re blue in the fact that this doesn’t constitute banning. But it does.“

So let me get this straight, If you threaten to protest someone you don’t like it is akin to a banning?

[Leora]

Hope your mirror didnt crack.haha

The IDF had the opportunity to goto Goldstone and put its case, it chose not too. If u dont pitch for an inquiry, then their is only witness, unlucky.
I am not for one moment saying the IDF are thugs, GD forbid, but they have to play by the rules, of decency, and human dignity, like the guys at ElAl at OR Tambo, they have to play by rules.

Now, as you profess to be a Torah observant person, which i somewhat highly doubt, who gave you the right to judge Goldstone, and surely the rules of war dictate that innocent civilians be unharmed?

Secondly, please stop with the hostile civilian population. I'm sure, there are many millions that want peace, unlike you, but like most Israeli's.

Unfortunately, as I read my correspondance with you, I too have lowered myself to your standards and I'm playing the man, rather than the ball.

Its easy to call for war, etc from your arm chair!

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Well Shaun, if you saw what happened to Ann Coulter up in Canada, then I suppose it is equivalent.

[Leora]

Shaun, my point about the Krengels, is that whilst its great that they serve the community, and I know them both, and they are really nice people. Influence, should be more spread and not held by one family. I'm not attacking Zev or Avrom.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Leora,

First, you haven't made a convincing case that they should play by "the Rules".

Secondly, assuming that they should "play by the rules", the US and it's allies haven't had any reports on their campaigns - ergo Kangaroo trials are not part of "the Rules". Further, turning up to present your side in a trial with a foregone conclusion lends false veracity to its outcome.

I'm not sure I claimed to be Torah observant, here or elsewhere. Either way, it's irrelevant. But I am pointing out your apparent lack of knowledge - i.e. "surely the rules of war dictate" ... is hardly quoting chapter and verse of halacha. You claimed the need for "ohr lagola" not me.

And finally - I'm not sure on what you base your assumption that the population of Gaza is not hostile to Israel.
However, EVEN if they are not hostile - I still don't see why they should be protected at the expense of soldier's lives.

PS:
Calling for war? huh?

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

As an aside, even international law i.e. geneva convention etc don't carry an absolute burden of "innocent civilians be unharmed" - so again - I'm not sure what standards you're seeking to apply?

[Leora]

When you approach a city to do battle with it you should call to it in peace. And if they respond in peace and they open the city to you, all the people in the city shall pay taxes to you and be subservient. And if they do not make peace with you, you shall wage war with them and you may besiege them. Deuteronomy 20:10-12

Joshua, before he entered the Land of Israel, sent three letters to its inhabitants. The first one said that those that wish to flee should flee. The second one said that those that wish to make peace should make peace. The third letter said that those who want a war should prepare to fight a war. Maimonides, Kingship 6:5

And i found this.
When in battle, a Jewish army must not completely surround the enemy on all four sides. The army must leave one side open in order to allow non-combatants to flee and needless bloodshed to be avoided.

When a Jewish army is victorious, soldiers are not permitted to rejoice. Jewish soldiers can be happy that the war is over and they have not lost their lives, but they are not allowed to celebrate the deaths of other human beings. Even if the enemy was completely despicable, they were still creations of God and their death can not be celebrated.

Enjoy, my darling.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Quoting verses (and Maimonides) about first suing for peace is not germaine to the definition of civilians.

Go find the part about what a civilian is and avoiding civilian casualties and who is to be let to live and who put to death, and whether Jewish soldiers are required to risk their own lives to protect those of the women and children of enemy combatants.

[RF2]

Hi

Firstly. RF1 and I are not the same person. You may wish to go find the thread on tikkun in SA when we were given these names. Also, RF1 is far more eloquent than me.

Regarding Israel's standards go have a look at what Col. Richard Kemp has to say. Whats interesting about him, unlike members of Goldstone's commission is that he has no previous activism for or against Israel. I can save you there trouble if you would like. According to him Israel acted with a higher level of consideration for enemy non-combatants than any other conflict in history even facing an enemy that hid itself amongst non-combatants.
Essentially, other than Goldstone's report, what evidence is there that Israel acted improperly?
Furthermore, as an aside you mention the white phosphorous. One, I can state from a point of knowledge that the images of "white phosphorous" we saw on TV were not at all that but rather a new smoke flare being used to conceal troop movements. But this is irrelevant - even if it was - who cares - if was used for tactical reasons against an enemy then it is not unethical at all.

Your quotes are great, thanks. But we have to be careful in applying the halacha. Perhaps Israels multiple gestures, the biggest perhaps being the disengagement, we count halachically as peace gestures. It may well be that Israle was halachically too lenient on the Gaza population as leaving so many combatants untouched further endangers Jewish lives. Maybe.

As for surrounding the enemy. Where is the explanation from? I only ask because I heard a different explanation for the same halacha. Essentially that leaving the 4th side open allows the enemy the feeeling that they have an escape route and so may not fight as hard. People with no escape often fight harder.

I must say though that the most pertinent point made on this thread was glossed over. RF1 said:

" Further, turning up to present your side in a trial with a foregone conclusion lends false veracity to its outcome."

This is why Israel did not cooperate, not cos they have anything to hide.

[the Hebrew prophet]

Israeli/Jewish soldiers should allow themselves to be blown up by Muslim female demented suicide bombers in a market place or place of worship if it means saving the Islamofascists from being blownup the words of a lunatic ?

[the Hebrew prophet]

Every single day for who knows how long ,Muslims having been killing each other in Muslim lands ,tit for tat,Sunni and Shiite ,so what do the anti-Israeli leftist Zachie Achmat supporters have to say aqbout this Muslim madness ?

[Leora]

Hi Rf2, you may be not as eloquent as Rf1, but far less aggresive.
Thanks for that.
Who is Col Kemp?
have a great day, till I reply.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Cue the dramatic irony, again.

Kemp:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3752671/a-british-military-expert-tells-truth-to-prejudice.thtml
http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=7536409
http://www.mesi.org.uk/ViewBlog.aspx?ArticleId=65

[RF2]

Leora.

I may be less aggressive but I give you less credit than RF1. He thinks he can say subtlethings like "cue the dramatic irony" and you'll understand.
I feel I need to explain it

It ironic that you have such a strong opinoon about Israel's action without ever having heard of Kemp

[S]

Still no response to my comments posted on May 05 so maybe Shavuoth is preventing the Zackie Achmat apologists from replying ,how revealing ?

[Hebrew Prophet]

And what about Jews who openly support the Palestine
Solidarity Group ,Leora ,where will they end up ,please elaborate ?

[Hebrew Prophet]

With plenty of anti-Semitic goyim out there we don,t need Jewish anti-Semites and anti -Israel lectures from the looney leftwing Jews ,thank you .

[Hebrew Prophet]

The Muslim butcher of Sudan Omar al Bashir is still free to committ more atrocities in southern Sudan,with his Muslim Janjaweed militia and still no word of condemnation from the leftwing looneys of Jewish South Africa ,why the deafening silence from them and the Palestine Solidarity Group or do these Muslims intimidate you too much?

[Hebrew Prophet]

Still no answers from the looneys ,makes one wonder
after their motives ?

[bridal gown]

This was the first one I tried on and tried about 6 more after that.