Dramatic Quotes

"Julius Malema like Avrom Krengel and the AWB are thugs."

Zackie Achmat in his letter to Jacob Zuma posted at his blog.

Outrageous. I don't recall Achmat criticising Salim Vally, nevermind comparing him to the AWB, when Vally used threats and intimidation to ensure that a Palestinian peace activist called off a joint peace tour with Benjamin Pogrund.

Comments

[Ariel]

Last I recall Avrom Krengel also never beat a man until he was brain damaged, threatened legal action against his critics or was convicted of hate speech.

[Brian]

How strange Zackie should draw this comparison. I was thinking the same thing myself. Krengel has the same manner of articulating himself in front of an audience that Julius Malema has. Avrom Krengel gave a speech at an SAZF Rally in February 2009 and during this speech he stated “You can march in the CBD, you can march in Rosebank, you can march in Sandton, but don't come to our neighborhood in a street with schools and synagogues on the eve of our holy Sabbath and try and provoke a conflict in this nation.” How strange that this creep is quite willing to disrupt a barmitzvah?

[Steve]

Brian, obviously dramatic polemicists think alike. You and Zackie. Well done!

[Brian]

Steve, what I'm surprised about is that Krengel hasn't resigned from the SAZF? How dare this arrogant little bully be allowed to get away with such threats to a fellow Jew and threaten to disrupt his grandson's barmitzvah? This is who you should be angry with? This little upstart has caused South Africans Jews to be stigmatised and their name to be dragged through the mud in almost every newspaper worldwide.

[Brian]

Furthermore, besides causing the South African Jewish community to appear to be intolerant and parochial, I hope Avrom Krengel will be footing the bill for the increased security that will be needed at prominent Jewish functions, including beefing up security at all synagogues countrywide.

[Benjamin-sa]

I have a suggestion: lets ignore the trolls. The ones doing all the shouting and labeling.

Lets for once talk about something substantive. Not this childish game of he said she said, or in this case he didn't say? I really don't care anymore, this is juvenile, asinine, and frankly boring. Exactly what is IAS achieving by wondering into this muck? Maybe I am naive and this is all there is.

Apologies if I am ranting, but I really am frustrated with the same arguments over the same topics, going exactly nowhere. I remember listening to Daniel Barenboim's advice, given during his bbc reith lectures May 2006:

To quote Martin Buber again: 'There can be no peace between Jews and Arabs that is only a cessation of war. There can only be a peace of genuine co-operation.' End of quotation. Therefore peace requires dialogue, a dialogue which consists of sensitive talking and often painful listening.

[Brian]

So what's your point Benjamin and who cares what Martin Buber said or didn't say vis-à-vis Jews and Arabs. This isn't a philosophy lesson. We are speaking about a "troll" called Avrom Krengel who's blowing a lot of hot air and doing some excessive "shouting and labeling?" which is having a deleterious effect on the South African Jewish community. Serious stuff I would say?

[Benjamin-sa]

I care much more what Martin Buber said than Avrom Krengel. Is the most interesting thing we have to talk about Avrom Krengel? really?

[Brian]

Yes it is. The quote is:"Julius Malema like Avrom Krengel and the AWB are thugs" and not - "Julius Malema like Martin Buber and the AWB are thugs." If you want to start a different thread speak to the hosts of this site?

[Sam]

It sure is hard to find a role model in this saga: Everyone seems to have messed up.

Goldstone for acquiescing in a the fait accompli of his mission
Krengel for wanting to protest at a barmitzvah of all things (why not the club where RG plays tennis?) and then refusing to acknowledging this crass mistake
Achmat for so obviously wearing his agenda on his sleeve and conflating two such different issues
Julius Malema - OK so he is not involved but his behaviour is so ridiculous we should include him in the list
Brian for ugly ad hominem attacks and partially thought out arguments that make one despair of him realising that he is the troll under discussion.

[Levi Eshkol]

Goldstone finally breaks his silence: http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=106886

[Levi Eshkol]

Here is his letter to Business Day: http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=106935

[Brian]

Sam I would be more than willing to write an essay to further articulate my point of view, if you are dissatisfied with, as you claim my" ugly ad hominem attacks and partially thought out arguments?" Unfortunately one liners don't give one much room for expression, nor do silly labels, such as "troll"? I've seen this word previously in right-wing blog circles, so you fool nobody. It sounds like a typical case of the pot calling the kettle black? Obviously you are above it all, with your verbose semantics, an obvious attempt to give yourself a false sense of intellectual and moral superiority, when you could express yourself in other ways? What right do you have to criticise Goldstone for as you claim "acquiescing in a the fait accompli of his mission?" He an international jurist with a wealth of experience. Does his religion bar him from being head of a task team affiliated with the UN? I agree with your comment about Krengel. If he wanted to picket, why not do it at the airport? There is nothing half thought out vis-a-vis Krengel's obvious hypocrisy? He's a creep and a bully and I hope he gets taken down?

[shaun]

had to add this one in here too...

Goldstone about his own report: “I wouldn’t consider it in any way embarrassing if many of the allegations turn out to be disproved.”

[RF2]

Like I stated in the other thread - the decision to demonstrate at a shul on shabbos has gom to be one of the silliest decisions of the community's history.

The sad thing is that it has given twits like Brian a place to speak up. To be clear - you can be against the protest and still think think Goldstone is a traitor and a disgrace to his people and all humanity. This I believe is the position most Jews hold. It is just sad that to voice opposition to the protest is to in some way side with the likes of Brian who, if he would 5 minutes of objective net research, would see why Sam has a right to criticise Dick.

[Brian]

Actually RF2, the only twit , disgrace and traitor is yourself. Smart people don't rush to judgement. Smart people read the Goldstone report before embarking on a witch hunt of a brilliant Judge, with a stellar reputation. Smart people don't make fatuous comments that most Jews believe Goldstone is a traitor.

Judge Goldstone is a wonderful man and doesn't deserve the treatment metered out to him by a bunch of right- wing Jewish fascists and smart people don't need five minutes to make that observation.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

well done Brian. You've once again shown that beneath the surface of a self proclaimed liberal beats the heart of a totalitarian with no sense of irony.

[Brian]

Religious Fundamentalist - either you must be Sam or related to Sam. He also makes these sweeping incongruous comments, which he recently sourced from a dictionary and didn't get it quite right in order to give himself an air of intellectual superiority. If you want to insult me, do it properly and not with verbose idiotic descriptions which make no sense at all. Do you know what the word totalitarian actually means? Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if your real name was Krengel?

[Steve]

And I wouldn't be surprised if Brian's real name was Richard.

[Hannes]

The Jews have to play things carefully because the whole world wants them to fail. Good luck!

[shaun]

Hey Brian…
As a serious liberal I doubt you have clue as to what most SA Jews feel about goldstone. I suggest you spend a bit of time in a regularly attend shul before you jump to conclusions.
Most polls show that affiliated Jews is SA, the USA and most Israelis do believe that Goldstone was wrong and many have used the word traitor…
Smart people don't rush to judgment: I guess that we can Judge based on Goldstones own words…: “I wouldn’t consider it in any way embarrassing if many of the allegations turn out to be disproved.”
Smart people read the Goldstone report before embarking on a witch hunt of a brilliant Judge: Yet I have read the report and it is filled with inaccuracies, double standards and fabrications… See above quote as proof.
Brilliant Judge, with a stellar reputation? Are you joking...? Ask any knowledgeable member of the IFP about the reputation of Goldstone or they not smart enough for you considering that they are black?
So now we can add that you are a racist in addition to your other crap.

[Levi Eshkol]

The former Chief Justice Chaskalson, Former Constitutional Court Justice Albie Sachs, Judge Dennis Davis and Justice Goldstone and everyone at the UN must be crazy and mad.

Only Israel's real supporters and true Zionists are right.

[Steve]

Mr PM, you forgot to add Ahmadinejad. He also agrees with UN et. al. He must also be mad.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Levi,

You're not seriously trying to argue that:
a) the "majority" is always right?
or that
b) the intellectual elite of a society is above error?

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Brian,
I'm sorry I over-estimated you. I'll try not to do it again. Please allow me elaborate on my succinct, some might even say pithy, comment.

Since you're a great intellectual you'll likely agree that totalitarian, like fascist is a much bandied about term, little understood and generally poorly defined.

So for the sake of argument let's apply the working definition that "totalitarian" means someone who views everything as political, and considers the centralised state as justified in acting to achieve the common good, viewing any rival identity as part of the problem, and seeking to impose uniformity of thought and action by force, regulation and/or social pressure.

Now let us examine a selection of your statements:
1) I hope Avrom Krengel will be footing the bill …
2) What right do you have to criticise Goldstone for…
3) Smart people read the Goldstone report before…
4) Smart people don't make fatuous comments…

I understand statement 1 to be an effort at limiting Krengel’s (free) speech through litigious action (or at least the implication thereof)
I understand statement 2 to imply that people, and Sam in particular, have no right to criticise Goldstone.
And I understand statements 3 and 4 (indeed that entire post) to imply, that people who do not reach the conclusions you do are not “smart” i.e. illegitimate and “the problem”. Perhaps in need of "re-education".

Consequently, I submit, you qualify as a totalitarian except in so far as that you have not called for government action.

Perhaps, as a quid pro quo, you might like to now justify your lable of fascism. Moreover, if you get the chance, perhaps you can explain why the fact that Goldstone is such a “wonderful man” and a “stellar judge” has a bearing on what he deserves for producing a report which is widely perceived as being pernicious, life-theatening and counter-productive?
Perhaps you’re suggesting his reputation, at least as you understand it, puts him above all reproach?

[to save you time, I specifically said “widely perceived” and didn’t state a position so you can stick to my question instead of launching on a tirade about my political views]

[Brian]

Shaun - I don't live in South Africa; thank goodness for small mercies. It's a wonderful warm and welcoming place for humanitarian Jews? A country I’d seriously consider putting down roots in? If most Jews in South Africa think like you do, and find it in their souls to go to Synagogue and believe what they do, I’d consider changing my religion. Furthermore you twat, don’t put words into my computer keys that I haven’t typed?

Religious Fundamentalist; if you have a wife, boyfriend, girlfriend or anything else, it’s best you spend more time with them, than wasting your “precious time” writing such drivel and coming up with the conclusions that you have? Your well thought out comment doesn’t even warrant a response?

Steve, I think you host this site? Huh? You should think of creating a link to a support group for the late Meir Kahane?

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

and there you have it folks ...

the final arrow in the leftists' quiver.

Darn it, I appear to have broken another one.

[Brian]

Religious Fundamentalist, you ignoramus twat, there is nothing “left” about me. I become incensed when I see a bunch of vindictive, small-minded parochial South African Jews behaving in such a despicable manner. Their attempt to abuse a child, to hit back at Grandpa is absolutely disgusting; no matter what Goldstone did or didn't do? This site seems to attract many of those same “moral” cretins?

[RF2]

Nice one RF1

Brian: To educate you.
As long as you you fowl language, ingnore the questions posed to you and continue to repeat the same disproved points, then you have lost.

[Steve]

From one fork in his tongue Brian accuses Shaun of putting words in his mouth and then from the other he tacitly implies that I support Kahane.

[Brian]

RF2, you won. Now be a good boy and eat up all your totalitarian, fascist veggies?

Steve, actually I never attributed that to you, but now I come to think of it and certainly from the reaction of your flock, Meir Kahane may as well be your spiritual leader?

[RF2]

I am quite sure Steve is not a Rav Kahane groupie

But for those of you who are intested - take a look at what he wrote 25 years ago and how accurate it is today. Those of us in Israel may have noticed the "Kahane was right" graffiti popping up all over. Now apart form it being better than a stuttering chasid is does give some thought - what was he right about that now people are spray painting this all over.

[Sam]

Brian

While I don't often find myself agreeing with RF2 (and at my last physical was relieved to be told that I am in fact not him), I think that his breakdown of totalitarianism for your benefit is both astute and timely.
From your first post on this thread you have waded in with name-calling, intolerance of others' views, and finally descended (alas, predicatably) to pure foul invective. Even worse, you seem to have lost (or never had?) a sense of humour. Over many years of monitoring this site (and I seldom post anything), I conclude that your contribution has been lacking in any redeeming qualities, even though I understand and even agree with elements of your blustery posts.

[Brian]

Sam you can believe what you like. That's your call?

Your support of RF2 vis-à-vis the topic of totalitarianism is quite honestly ridiculous. What’s totalitarianism got to do with my belief that Avrom Krengel is a bully and a twat? It was never my intention to get involved with name-calling and the only person I insulted was Avrom Krengel, who is now a laughing stock worldwide and if he had any sense would resign forthwith from his position as head of the SAZF. I don’t agree with the manner in which Judge Goldstone was treated and neither does the international community. I don’t live in SA, but the South African Jewish community, from being considered in relatively high esteem is now viewed as right wing, vindictive and parochial. This is despite the fact that many Jewish South Africans supported the apartheid regime.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Brian,

Let me understand:
Right wing is an insult. But there's nothing "left" about you?

vindictive:
you might see it as vengeful, but you might also reasonably see the reaction as a consequential expression of disgust, whether you agree with its form or not. Perhaps, since you're unable to perceive that Goldstone may have done anything wrong, you can't get your head around the fact that there might be a consequence to his actions. Either way, for a great intellectual you're a little myopic.

parochial: No idea how you think this relates at all. But I'll refrain from asking you to explain since in your brilliance you've refrained from explaining yourself in the past and have resorted to unpleasant terms.

I'm not quite sure who you think you represent and who the unmentioned "they" are that suddenly views the SA community so negatively. I'll hazard a guess that either they're extremely fickle - or they're not the type to stand up to Israel bashers. Either way - they're a waste of time.

[Brian]

Religious Fundamentalist. I am neither left nor right. I'm a human being who believes that using a young boy to punish grandpa is wrong, very wrong. So wrong, that it's morally reprehensible. Judge Goldstone has done nothing wrong, except in the eyes of those who don’t enjoy being told the truth. Judge Goldstone held both Hamas and Israel accountable for their actions and the burden of proof is upon Israel to prove otherwise, which they refuse to do. Israel refused point blank to participate in the investigation and the evidence that Judge Goldstone had at his disposal, was what was presented to him and what he saw for himself. Let’s not forget that 1300 Palestinians died?

I do not believe that a Judge who stands for everything which is good and moral should be subjected to a “witch hunt.” I doubt you have even read the report, but you are prepared to sanction the use of a holy venue ostensibly for political purposes.

Parochial means narrow, should you wish to refer to a dictionary? The inability to understand that the world is a multifaceted place, in which an issue is frequently neither black nor white, but often grey - is narrow. Need any further clarification?
There is nothing wrong with engaging Judge Goldstone, but there is a time and a place for everything. A bar mitzvah is neither the place nor the time to do this.

This is all I was expressing from the outset. My suspicion is that many of you who read and post on this blog don’t like the truth and in this case the truth is black and white. Don’t abuse children under any circumstances. Besides being morally wrong it’s also unconstitutional. What message do you believe you will be presenting to a young man by picketing at his bar mitzvah?

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Setting aside the snarky self-righteous black/white/grey confusion, here's a thought.

The message to the Barmitzvah boy is this:

Now you're a man, in the fine sense the term once had. You step into the adult world responsible for your actions and responsible to the people around you.
You will be held responsible for your actions by other people and your creator.
There are consequences to every action.
Though you may act with the very best of intentions, people may get hurt.
- no good deed goes unpunished.

Rather fitting.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

One other point, while I'm looking up "parochial" in the dictionary I intend looking up "child abuse".

If there isn't a picture of dubious political action outside a religious institution I'm going to be forced to assume that your vouching for Goldstone and the import of his report, indeed your gasp of reality in general, is as flimsy as your grasp of English.

[The pil]

Brian, your ignorance is begining to show. Goldstone did not blame Hamas for the rockets he blamed there armed division. He managed to seperate the rulers of Gaza from the army-an amazing feat of intelectual acrobatics. This little bit of information may give you an indicaton as to why the report has no legitamicy.
However this does not mean that the barmi-boys day should be disturbed. As I noted in another thread there were better ways to show disaproval.

Furthermore your comment about Jews and Apartheid is absolutely meaningles. A large number of Black people supported Apartheid, the IFP. Does that mean that all black people supported Apartheid- clearly no. Than what is your point.

Moreover it is rich of you to judge us living in South Africa. The Jewish community that has remained whether for or against Apartheid is trying to build a better country for all. You are more than welcome to move to South Africa and to use your unique talents to help in this exercise but you do not get to judge us until you are living here.

[Brian]

Your thoughts?

http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/burningpaper/2010/04/26/mindless-south-african-jewish-sheep-mentality-strikes-again/

and

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=173623

[shaun]

chewing gum

[Brian]

"Great bunch huh?" Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/warren-goldstein/whats-in-a-name-foolishne_b_552321.html

[shaun]

As Brian has pointed out, someone can live thousands of miles away from an event, but still call themselves knowledgeable about said event, because, with the help of the internet you have a huge a source of information that supports any worldview you desire.
For example Brian, you call yourself neither write nor left, but you quote Larry Derfner, who by his own admission has a personal intolerance for religion and is happy to see the widowed families of IDF soldiers forcibly removed from their homes. He also refuses participating in any kid of public debate on the issues he writes about.
Or you can take the random options of a few disgruntled member of the Jewish community. Personally I would suggest Brian listen to Doron Isaacs who sees his Jewish birth as "an accident…" I'm sure Doron would be happy to know that someone other than Zakie Achmed or Ronnie K actually believes he represents a sizable number of the SA Jewish community.

On another note I was initially surprised that Goldstone accepted the Tikkun award. This is a group of ultra liberals who are openly hostile to most Israeli policies and are completely intolerant of any stream of Judaism that doesn’t fit into their egalitarian model.
On second though considering Goldstone's choice to have his name associated with every Israel basher and blood liable claim, I am no longer surprised.
Take a look at the number of sites that support the claims that Israelis went to Haiti to harvest Organs... coupled with evidence from the Goldstone report.

[Brian]

Shaun, the only people that spoke out about the Goldstone affair, were those you have mentioned above. The entire Jewish establishment, baring a few were as quiet as church mice, so why mention them, when your statement actually confirms the obvious? I don't care what Larry Derfner's ideological position is; what he wrote in his article is pretty much factual. I can personally vouch for this? Furthermore why do you concern yourself with the Tikkun award? What's your point? Orthodoxy and the rest of the Jewish establishment in South Africa are just as ideological in a contrary way; so once again your comment is self defeating and tautological?

The stupidity of this event is that it attracts Israel bashers and anti-Semites to refer to Jewish blood libels and organ harvesting. The behavior of the Chief Rabbi, Krengel and the wider Jewish community is just as effective and akin to having the chief Rabbi stand up and confirm the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

Refer below to Doron Isaac’s commentary. It’s pretty good.

http://writingrights.org/2010/04/28/doron-isaacs-the-goldstone-bar-mitzvah-saga-from-beginning-to-end-at-least-so-far/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

[shaun]

So it’s okay for Goldstone to have his report associated with blood libels, but if Jews criticize Goldstone, they are attracting Israeli bashers to refer to Blood libels and the protocols?
Thanks for the correspondences Brain, you intolerant racist twat.

Can anyone give a factual answer to this question: Was Goldstone ever told in any way, that he may not attend the Shul ceremony?

[the Hebrew prophet]

Only some far leftwing anti-Israeli Jew can answer this question ,but will he/she?

[the Hebrew prophet]

For all those far leftwing liberals who post their nonsensical pie in the sky theories ,has Hamas presented it,s Goldstone inspired report on it,s war crimes to the UN yet and if not why not ?

[the Hebrew prophet]

Does Avrom Krengel speak for the majority of SA Jews and if no,then who speaks for the far left liberal anti -Israel crowd if he doesn,t an honest answer will suffice,thanks?

[RF2]

That just point Shaun. The fundamental cornerstone of liberalism is that all is allowed as long as they agree with you. Look at the demoncrats in America, who, if anything demeaning is said of their precious Obamassiah, rush to his defence with the "you must honour the presidency" line. Lets count the personal attacks on Bush. Look at Israel where Bainish and her cronies redefine issues such as freedom of speech and expression to those borders which do not conflict with left wing liberal policies. And lets look at Brain, who is happy to be blind to that fact that Goldstones report has brought more anti semites out of the woodwork since than this little shul debacle could ever have wished to, but then claims that its the shul issue that is what gives us a bad name.
The other cornerstone of liberalism is of course to ignore the facts. As you pointed out, contrary to the IMPLICATION of the media reports, Dick was never told he may not attend the shul, he was told that doing so may embarrass himself and his family - natural consequnce of telling the world that Israel are a bunch of child killers.

Brain, if I may diverge from this point for a moment to discuss the report. As stated above, there are numerous sites which examine in great detail the factual and procedural inaccuraices in the report. But lets assume that all the accusations made against Israel were true. They are of course not, but lets play a game. Dick and his cronies have accused Isael of a number of incidents of intentionally targeting civilians within a massive mlitary operation that targeted armed enemies and infrastructre. These events, were they to be true, represents a small exception rather than the rule of the Israeli offensive. Hamas on the other hand fired in the region of 10000 rockets intentionally and only at civilians, the fact that there casualty rate was higher was a function of the accuracy of their weapons, not the virility of their intentions. With this in mind how then do Dickie and friends make such detailed criticism of Israel's behaviour and mention Hamas only in passing. Blaming Israel's lack of cooperation is as totally non sensical. There is a truth out there and regardless of Israels cooperation, that truth remains. When Dick laments Israels lack of cooperation for the one sided nature of his report he is a) admitting to the one sided nature and b)sounds with a sulking child wh is happy to have gotten a little revenge.
It is for this reason that the SA Jewish community is so disgusted with the man and why few will want to spend a saturday morning in his company or see the man be given an aliyah by the people who has placed in danger. It is childish to say that those who criticise israel blindly support all israel does. I assure you I personally know at least 2 of the other bloggers here and we have plenty to say about Israel, but the Goldstone report is objectively faulty and places us in danger

[Lawrence]

Hebrew Prophet anybody who signed the "Jewish" South African anti-Israel petition during the selfsame Gaza War and the previous petition against Israel during the war with Hezbollah in 2006, speaks for the far left anti-Israel crowd.

[Brian]

RF2, what a load absolute tripe. You seem fixated on this liberal, conservative thing and hurtle off into the stratosphere on some gibberish diatribe. You really are taking your eye off the ball. The issue with Goldstone is a matter of principle; where his grandson’s bar mitzvah is concerned. You have contaminated a simple family affair with a political agenda and conflated his professional career with his private life? It’s not as if he’s some war criminal being sought after by the Hague for crimes against humanity and needs to be apprehended immediately? If you don’t want to be close to him, pray at another Synagogue. I can assure you there are many Synagogues in Johannesburg, anxious for a minyan on a Friday night or Saturday morning. Refer to my earlier comment on Krengel’s statement about picketing at a Synagogue? You seem to conveniently avoid this comment which happens to be on record.

As stated previously if you have an issue with the Goldstone report, the Synagogue is neither the time nor the place for public debate or political consternation. It does seem to be an arena for a sanctimonious Zionist witch hunt – knowing full well that in the normal scheme of things, this type of behavior is morally reprehensible and unconstitutional. What we are really focused on is a disgusting form of emotional blackmail. Trust these cowards to try and flex their puny little muscles at a holy sanctuary, the only place where they exercise any power. I’m sure that Goldstone, does not want to see his grandsons bar mitzvah being politicized and hijacked by a bunch of small minded vindictive South African Jews. No surprise he lives in Washington?

With reference to his report, if anything, the burden of proof is upon Israel to investigate this tragic affair, whatever your political affiliations or point of view. When so many people are dead, you would expect there to be a commission of enquiry? Israel had refused cooperation from the start – it had not allowed the UN mission to enter Israel or the Palestinian Territories – the assignment was made possible only through the Egyptian government that allowed entry to Gaza at Rafah. Judge Goldstone tried to be as even handed as possible. He himself is an orthodox Jew.

If you all are so passionate about Israel, why are you spending so much of your time and energy defending it, when you could be knocking on the door of the aliyah shaliach?

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Again, just a little perspective please ...

"morally reprehensible and unconstitutional" - are you kidding me?

Picketing is perfectly constitutional. Indeed it's highly democratic. You can argue about tasteful or not, or disturbing the peace or similar - but once again you're being highly emotive without considering the issue.

As for "moral"?

There are a lot of moral issues about selling your soul to anti-semites, colluding with murderers in the UN, selling Israel down the river in a report that has had no benefit whatsoever and indeed just the nerve to critisize a sovereign state for defending her citizens from a murderous bunch of thugs supported by the very organisation sending you to investigate.

Picture Goldstone's grandfather going to the Czar of Russia and saying "you're right". Those damn Jews just won't serve in the army and they keep dodging taxes - if we can just get them to be model citizens then maybe the pogroms will stop. Sure they don't "deserve" the pogroms, but we're obligated as great moral Jews to fix these damn Jews as if they're in a vacuum. Absurd.

But you Brian haven't applied your mind. You've bought the report and surrounding hokum and party line, hook line and sinker. Pun intended. You've emotively ranted in an extraordinarily distasteful and shrill fashion about what is at worst a distasteful display of democracy.

The synagogue is indeed the community venue for discussion of ALL topics. It is the very centre of Jewish communal life and if someone is to be censured - it is THE place where any "cherem" is most accutely felt.

You can argue about taste, you can argue about the efficacy of "cherem" and many other things- but you're on a bandwagon with an evil bunch of people and you're not doing any good with your irrational invective.

The number of people dead is a perfect example. Number's are only meaningful in context. But given your erratic display of emotion I doubt you understand much about numbers.

[Anonymous]

It's wonderful to have you back! Your most ardent admirer.

[Brian]

RF2, what a load of absolute tripe. You seem fixated on this liberal, conservative thing and hurtle off into the stratosphere on some gibberish diatribe. You really are taking your eye off the ball. The issue with Goldstone is a matter of principle; where his grandsons bar mitzvah is concerned. You have contaminated a simple family affair with a political agenda and conflated his professional career with his private life? It’s not as if he’s some war criminal being sought after for crimes against humanity by the Hague and needs to be apprehended immediately? If you don’t want to be near him, pray at another Synagogue. I can assure you there are many other Synagogues in Johannesburg, anxious for a minyan on a Friday night or a Saturday morning. Read my earlier comment on Krengel’s statement about picketing at a Synagogue? You seem to conveniently avoid this comment which happens to be on record.

As stated previously if you have an issue with the Goldstone report, the Synagogue is neither the time nor the place for public debate or political consternation. It does seem to be an arena for a sanctimonious Zionist witch hunt – knowing full well that in the normal scheme of things, this type of behavior is morally reprehensible and unconstitutional. What we are really focused on is a disgusting form of emotional blackmail. Trust these cowards to try and flex their puny little muscles at a holy sanctuary, the only place where they can exercise any power. I’m sure that Goldstone, does not want to see his grandsons bar mitzvah being politicized by a bunch of small minded vindictive South African Jews. No surprise he lives in Washington?

With reference to his report, if anything, the burden of proof is upon Israel to investigate this tragic affair, whatever your political affiliation or point of view is. When so many people are dead, you would expect there to be a commission of enquiry? Israel had refused cooperation from the start – it had not allowed the UN mission to enter Israel or the Palestinian Territories – the assignment was made possible only through the Egyptian government that allowed entry to Gaza at Rafah. Judge Goldstone tried to be as even handed as possible. Judge Goldstone is also an orthodox Jew and sent his children to King David.

If you all are so passionate about Israel, why are you spending so much of your time and energy defending it, when you could be knocking on the door of the aliyah shaliach?

[RF2]

Well Well.
Like most ranting anti Israel leftists you have wildly thrown accusations without reading the arguments. I know this becuase had you done so you would see that I mentioned in previous post that I do in fact live in Israel. Silly boy.
More relevant though was my point that I agree that shul should not be politicised and that picketing outside a shul, whilst democratic, is dangerous and stupid. I stated early on that it is the right of every individual in shul to decide to daven somewhere else or to get up and leave when Dick walks in. This has nothing to do with the boy, it has to do with the rights of the community and individuals to not be associaited with someone who has called them babykillers. I refer you again to Shaun's point: At what point was Dick ever told that he may not attend? The answer is that he was never, he was advised that if he does, individuals, within their rights, may leave.

I must admire how you managed to right a whole post totally ignoring the points that I made regarding the content of the report. Even Doron Isaacs would be proud.
"So many people dead" Please, you idiot - look at military conflicts around the world and through history and tell me how 1300 over 3 weeks of fighting is "So many". So many relative to what exactly? Of the 1300 the vat majority are armed combatants (if you include hamas policemen who were armed and active against Israel - Hamas did not count them). In fact the number of civilian casualties, even by very liberal estimates was very small given that the enemy was hiding amongst civilians. The only "so many" in this story that relates to non combatants was the number of rockets fired at Israeli civilians since the Gaza disengagement.

You I assume either live in Israel or are a self righteous twit for your comment to me. Lets give you the benfit of the doubt. I assume you have or plan to have children. When you send them to the army they are going to be in far more danger becuase of the report. Rules of engagement have changed and Jews are going to die (Heaven forbid) becuase of fear of reports such as Goldstone. Either you have suc disegard for your childrens' saftey or you do't pl;an on sending them to the army in which case you really have no place to comment

[Brian]

Picketing may be lawful. You are correct about this, but the rest of your rambling is absolute gibberish. Remind me to invite a gang of neo - Nazis to your wedding?

[Brian]

We should perhaps stop this shouting at each other? You have your point of view and I have mine. We are going nowhere with this. My perspective from the outset which I've reiterated time and time again is believing, using a child's Bar mitzvah for the purposes of hitting at grandpa is wrong.Debate argue with him, do what you want within legal parameters, but as Krengel quite rightly stated “You can march in the CBD, you can march in Rosebank, you can march in Sandton, but don't come to our neighborhood in a street with schools and synagogues on the eve of our holy Sabbath and try and provoke a conflict in this nation.” Pity he can't put his money where his mouth is?

[Lawrence]

Brian/Richard babbles:
"Remind me to invite a gang of neo - Nazis to your wedding?"

Usual projection there Brian/Richard.
Neo-Nazis share your sympathy and endorsement of the Goldstone Report Brian/Richard, along with Muslim fanatics. I guess it's just one of those crazy coincidences that Brian's opinion on the Gaza war and Israel's conduct in that war is shared by neo-Nazis who want to see a second Holocaust, and Ahmandinejad and his ilk too? Not.

Oh wait God forbid I point out the obvious, that Brian and his ilk have the same opinions, are in lockstep with neo-Nazis and Muslim fanatics in their notions about the Israel/Arab Muslim conflict, just ONE example - their shared endorsement of the Goldstone Report. Nothing to see there, move along.

Brian cannot be reasoned with since he has no reason, he must just be exposed for the Jew-hater that he is and that is that. Brian doesn't care for facts, he suffers from numerous pathological disorders, so it doesn't make a difference what you write RF1 and RF2 (Brian will just ignore it and launch another ignorant Jew-hate rant), but he must be called the Jew-hater that he is, even as he denies it. Exposure is all you can do, not debate with somebody who is a crackpot and a lying Jew-hater. Jeeez.

Why must he be called the Jew-hater that he is?

Uh because he is one even as he denies it. At least neo-Nazis and Hamas and Hezbollah are honest about their Jew-hatred and call it what it is.

Over to you Brian and your next screed of ignorant crackpot bigotry that ignores my point about the coincidence of your shared endorsement of the Goldstone Report (and a lot else besides) with neo-Nazis. Go ahead, we all await with baited breath...

[Lawrence]

another thing, Jews can be anti-Semitic too, it's called self-loathing. Just look at Kasrils, Zapiro, Chomsky and so many others.

We are indeed going nowhere with this Brian, so go back to the hole you crawled out of, you have your Jew-hate opinions, we have ours (which all differ considerably btw from one another) and that's the way it will stay. Nobody is going to change anybody's mind here.

[RF2]

Lawrence, I feel the need to try nevertheless.
I'll make this post shorter in the hope that he will read it.

Brian.
Exercising your democratic right to get up and walk out of shul, or not to arrive at all, is not taking anything out on the child. There are no politics just a simple desire to not be repulsed by his presence. I agree, as I have said numerous times, that demonstrating outside the shul is wrong. But one cannot expect the shul members to happily sit and daven whilst this kappo is there with them.

[RF2]

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/dershowitz/entry/it_is_goldstone_who_is

Of course Brian won't hold by Dershowitz, but the rest of you might find this interesting

[Lawrence]

ha RF2 I was just about to post that article by Dershowitz, you beat me to it! yes a very interesting take. In fact a must-read.

[Brian]

Dershowitz doesn't know what he's talking about. He has the chronological order of the how it evolved completely mixed up to make it look like Goldstone politicized the event. Would you want your grandson to feel uncomfortable with having hecklers present while he's reading the Maftir and Haftorah? I don't think so. Rather than make it unpleasant for everyone you stay away, especially when the Rabbi gives his approval or tacit approval, because he himself supports for the protest.

Dershawitz has his own agenda and just because he's a Harvard Law Professor doesn't make him right.

[shaun]

Seems like the SA Jewish report is patting themselves on the back for a job well done.
Last week they explained that they wrote “Barred” as their interpretation of events, and now they say:
“Firm and principled leadership is required to restore the faith in our leadership itself which has been damaged by the saga.”

Wow, the Newspaper causes the controversy, one week, a week later they claim that others may taken their interpretation to literally and now they question the SA Jewish leadership.

Fortunately it is a free on line newspaper, but I think we should start suggesting that proudly Jewish and Zionist business don’t advertise or support the SAJR.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Dershawitz (sic) has his own agenda and just because he's a Harvard Law Professor doesn't make him right.

or to paraphrase ...

Goldstone has his own agenda and just because he's a fancy pants judge doesn't make him right.(either!)

______________________________________

Has anyone noticed how Brian ignores the posts, dismisses them as gibberish but fails to provide a coherent argument, either in support of his own vitriolic assertions or in pointing out the fallacies of other arguments? Instead he resorts to broad brush dismissals of people based on their other opinions.

As an example, Brian claims Derschowitz materially (erroneously?) distorted the timeline, but fails to provide an example to prove his point. The subtext here is that Derschowitz is an evil close-minded "neo-con" and therefore cannot be believed or trusted and should be dismissed outright.

______________________________________

Since nobody commented on my previous "here's a thought to the Barmy boy" ... here's another:

If the Barmy boy and his famous Grampa are so proud of their actions and convinced of their rectitude why wouldn't they be quite comfortable to defy a bunch of boorish, knuggle dragging troglodyte bigoted racists with placards outside a shul?
Maybe they're worried there won't be a minyan present after Gramps hobbles in and they won't even be able to have an aliya?

[Brian]

Religious Fundamentalist, you really have things confused and wrong. It was 3:30am in the morning, when I wrote my last post. When I have more time, barring work commitments, I'll indicate what I mean.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

I eagerly look forward to your guiding light ... I can't wait for your erudite brilliance to provide the eureka moment that will show Brian as the ultimate clear thinker and lead me into the shadow of your great intellect. I can't imagine for a moment that you might actually be wrong.

[RF2]

Brian. I actually can't believe you walked straight into that. It takes a special kind of debater to set himself up for such a beating with a contradiction so blatant Helen Keller could have seen it.

"Dershawitz has his own agenda and just because he's a Harvard Law Professor doesn't make him right. "

On this you are correct but sunshine, you yourself rambled on earlier about the sterling reputation Dick has and how we have no right to question him because of his high standing.

I would like to thank you on behalf of all those disgusted by the Goldstone report for so cleverly explaining why we have a right a question its content even though we aren't world famous judges.

[Brian]

RF2, You really just don't get it do you? My comment was pertaining to Judge Goldstone not qualifying to take on the role in his professional capacity(merely due to his religious status), as opposed to nasty character assassinations that Dershotwits seems to love engaging in to disempower his opponents and his disingenuous time line, to make Goldstone seem to have politicized the affair.

Give it a break now, it's enough. Move on????

[Sam]

I would like to nominate Brian for the worst debating performance (blog category) of 2010. Whether or not you agree with his stance, his arguments have been so poorly structured and his refutation of valid objections so obfuscated, that those who are in agreement with him would be forgiven for reconsidering their position...

[Brian]

Sam you move on as well. Grow up????

[Brian]

Read this!!!!

http://www.eurasiareview.com/2010/04/alan-dershowitz-accuses-rabbis.html

[Brian]

Can't hear a pin drop? It must be quite disconcerting and discomforting to read that your "pin up boy" Dershotwits is an abject liar and a scumbag????

[Lawrence]

Brian the usual projection again.

Like I mentioned, you share the same opinions with neo-Nazis and Muslim fanatics re Israel and related. You have the exact same opinion on Dershowitz as neo-Nazis and Muslim extremists and for the same reasons.

So once again, Brian predictably spouts out the same ignorant gibberish that neo-Nazis do (re Dershowitz this time around). I pointed out that Brian will ignore the point I made that his opinion on the Goldstone Report is the same as neo-Nazis and Muslim extremists, he predictably did so of course, and then predictably spouts out more ignorant Jew-hate rubbish that is identical to anything I could read at some white supremacist website and a Muslim extremist one and of course the usual gang of Jew-hating Lefty websites and forums. A triumvirate of hate. At least the former two are honest about what they are.

Brian when you have something to say on the Middle-East and related that won't be endorsed by neo-Nazis I will let you know...

[Brian]

Lawrence, I thought after your last psychotic rant that you may have blown a blood vessel and disappeared into ignominy. You are an absolute buffoon. I used the analogy with neo - Nazis to point out that behavior by you and your shul going bullyboys is no different to neo - Nazis at a beeriest. Go and take your medication and get back in your kennel?

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Just in case the crickets were getting too loud, here's a comment on Brians link:

hhmmm... another link to a badly written polemic.

[Ezer Weizman]

This is a center of right wing fanaticism. Time to face the bitter truth, its not a nice pill to swallow.

[shaun]

But, a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down… in the most delightful way…

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

But Ezer, you say that as if it's a bad thing?

[Lawrence]

Brian, the projection of your own insanity onto me is simply tiresome, and boring. In a sane world people like you would be committed, but it's a world turned upside down.

Brian your ignorant opinions of Israel and the Goldstone Report and Dershowitz are shared by neo-Nazis and Muslim fanatics. Gettit? No I realise you don't get it and never ever will. Truth hurts, not my problem.

Brian you are not just a really stupid cretin, you are a patholgical Jew-hater (well the two go hand in hand). Why not just admit it you moron?

[Dave Grey]

Brian, please send us pics from your last KKK/PLO/ Israel Apartheid week rallies. Your opinions would really please those crowds.

I have read the entire blog from start to finish and I can only conclude that you made a statement, got beaten and have come back for more punishment. It is as if you feel the longer you 'debate' the more people will leave and you will claim victory by virtue of the fact no one bothered to respond.

Others tried to debate the issue, you debated the person. You played the man and not the ball and you got kicked to pieces for it

[Brian]

How have I been beaten Dave? Avron Krengel, Goldstein, Kurtstag and the entire South African Jewish community are the laughing stock of the world. Government and local attitudes will now harden towards South African Zionists. There will be far less sympathy shown towards the local Jewish community who has been shown up for being vindictive parochial fools. You will become increasingly marginalized. Remember the Nats aren’t in power and their policies will no longer protect you. Most of all Goldstone will be attending his Grandsons bar mitzvah and all of you right-wing sheep will be kept in your pens to debate each other en mass?

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Shame Brian, you really are battling to follow this thread.

Are you trying to argue that SA Zionists (i.e. the vast majority of SA Jewry and its leadership) should be making every effort to curry favour and get sympathy irrespective of the cost?
Or are you simply failing to understand the general contempt and odiousness of Goldstone as seen by the community and their consequent reaction?

[Brian]

Religious Fundamentalist,what I understand is that you and your right - wing flock have been beaten to a pulp. Your outrage with Goldstone is only heard within the walls of your Glenhazel/Linksfield ghettoes. What I also know is that you and your bloodied cronies will never try and pull a move like that again?

Jewish liberals from all nations, unite

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/strenger-than-fiction-jewish-liberals-from-all-nations-unite-1.287913

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

So you're not going to answer the question, but claim a bloody victory and link to an unrelated article in the newspaper with the most subscription cancellations in Israel in 2010.

The "bloody victory" is that Goldstone presumably attended a barmitzvah he wasn't banned from in the first place - but the media pretended he was because some Zionists had floated the idea to stand outside the shul and express disapproval. No wonder Europe is dying and Obama has car bombs in time square.

I'm really impressed that international liberal Jewry has united, especially based on the excellent reporting of what is probably Israel's least read newspaper. What is interesting, is that the article pretty much says the opposite to the title.

The problem with "Jewish liberals", and it seems you count yourself amongst them, is much like the problem with "liberals" in general - i.e. a claim to moral superiority and rectitude, translated into the assumption that the vast majority of people must agree with them, and echoed through a liberal press. Your posts are deeply steeped in this psychosis and hence your proud claim to such a pyrrhic victory.

Does anyone actually know what happened at the shul on Sat?

[Brian]

The quintessence is that your empty hollow words within an insignificant right wing Jewish blog mean nothing. I was never trying to claim a victory as you claim. I was voicing my outrage from the outset. I can assure you and this is my last word on the subject, that you and your brave horde of Glenhazel Zionist warriors will never try and pull a move like this again, nor will you be given the opportunity to. Of this I’m sure. Now hop back into your fundamentalist rabbit holes fortified with electric fencing, boom gates and armed patrols and chew on your kosher carrots.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Dramatic Irony anyone?

[The pil]

The new liberal doctrine-free speech for all, except for those who disagree with me. And of course a total lack of respect for ones opponents and for an entire country.

I like The fact that a so called liberal like Brian feels that the ANC government, which is supposed to be the protectors of democracy are going to take away our right to be zionist and support the Jewish state.

Also I would like to know where the idea comes from that one is right winger if one supports Israel. If that is the case I guess I am a right winger and I guess so was Stallin.

It is amazing that liberals who used to speak about making love not war somewhere along the line became so bitter. I was unaware that sex does that to a person.

[the Hebrew prophet]

Well i didn,t sign it but will Lawrence and his leftist friends organise a petition against Julius Malema or are they to intimidated by the ANC youth thugs,you get the hypocrisy ?

[the Hebrew prophet]

So Lawrence whatever happened to Hamas,s war crimes report to Judge Goldstone,would you care to update us ?

[shaun]

Has anyone else noticed how Brian has progressed from a non-South African who posted at off hours, to being incredibly familiar with the SA Jewish community, its geography and local south African colloquialisms?
I think we are dealing with more than one Brian?

[RF2]

Na, an ex pat living in Israel. my guess either Raanana or a kibbutz somewhere.

Brian, it is very sad that you do not let facts confuse your arguments.
How stunt did the leadership try? They made it clear from the start that Dick was alowed to go where he pleased. It was the Jewish Report that published the lie that he was banned. The only plan that was stopped was the proposed picket. And whilst I firmly believe that picketing would have been dangerous and stupid thing to do, it is a fundamental democratic right.

[Dave Grey]

Cheers Brian, it was a displeasure trying to debate you. Your opinion lacked thought and when you were getting beaten you turned to offensive and initimidating language. You struggled to keep your emtions in check as your arguments were destroyed one by one. But to be honest, it wasn't a fair fight, you were protecting Goldstone, a liar and a fraud.

[Brian]

Listen guys lets just call it quits with the insults and the Goldstone issue. Its futile. You have your point of view, I have mine. I visit this site, simply due the topical issues and frequently agree with what's been posted. I don't agree with any of you on Goldstone. Furthermore, I didn't start with the insults. I insulted Krengel and in respose I was called a twat. If I've insulted any of you I apologize for this, even you Lawrence. In real life you are probably all really nice guys. I don't live in SA, but I don't live in Israel either.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

yes, let's all shake hands, make friends and pretend one of us wasn't standing up for a "moser" and making nasty unjustified comments based on uncorroborated articles:

http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2010/05/convenient-moral-blindness.php

[Brian]

I read the Caroline Glick article. I don't agree with all she has written, but Jonathan Sussman is no different to any other arrogant and intolerant fundamentalist?

[Lawrence]

Avrom Krengel has written a piece today on Goldstone in the JPost, 'In pain and anger'
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=174789

Goldstone has one too in the JPost today, which is proof (if any was needed) that he is a few slices short of a loaf, entitled, 'If only Israel had cooperated', I would add if only Israel had cooperated with a Jew-hating commission then what? you wouldn't have endorsed a pack of Jew-hate lies Goldstone? Read it before eating breakfast this morning, I can't guarantee you will be able to hold your food down otherwise.

Krengel's piece is btw what you would expect from him, Krengel isn't the brightest, heart is in the right place but really he's none too smart. He says the Hamas charter calls for Israel's destruction. Actually Krengel it calls for the liquidation of ALL JEWRY, the Fatah constitution calls for Israel's destruction.

Krengel then writes obtusely, directed to Goldstone:
"As a member of the Jewish community, we ask you to understand our pain and anger at what you have done, and to work with us in ensuring that Israel is not treated differently than any other nation."

The above is incoherent, we ask a kapo who has served the interests of Israel's enemies who are sworn to its destruction, we ask a kapo who has served as a useful idiot for the Jihad against the Jews, to understand our pain and anger at what you have done!! If Goldstone could understand our pain and anger he would not have done what he did in the first place, Krengel - very basic psychology.

You know Krengel is typical of Jewish leadership throughout the Diaspora, Foxman in the States, possibly the least bright of the lot is that Farber twerp in Canada, in the UK it's not great shakes either. None of them could be accused of setting the world on fire with their intellects. Krengel you are no Robert Wistrich or Anthony Julius or Dershowitz or Caroline Glick - leave the opinion pieces on Israel to people who have more knowledge and sechel than you.

[shaun]

It would appear that Goldstones’ record is not so clean after all.

As an apartheid judge he not only sentenced a number of blacks to death, he also wrote a ruling that stated:
“The murder calls for the maximum sentence allowed by the law. It follows in my opinion that on that account the only proper sentence is the death sentence.
A proper sentence should act as a deterrent to others who may be tempted to murder or rob defenseless and innocent people.”

Looking forward to seeing the verbal acrobatics of the Goldstone apologists…

[the Hebrew prophet]

So anyone who doesn,t tow the far left anti-Israeli line is a right wing fascist or bigot or whatever these leftists like to call us.The real question that has yet to be answered ,why is Hamas an Islamofa
ascist movement permitted to target civilian homes in Sderot and Ashkelon ,with their crude but deadly Qassam rockets ,on what basis can this possibly be legal or right?

[the Hebrew prophet]

Will these leftists speak out against the ANC youth league clown Julius Malema,no as they cannot upset the ruling party ,that,s complete cowardice in my book?