Let's Talk Israel

David Saks, Associate Director of the SA Jewish Board of Deputies has requested that we temporarily remove the link to "Let's Talk Israel" as they are currently experiencing some technical glitches.

The post has temporarily been removed. We will repost the link when it's sorted out.

My apologies to users. There is a problem with the link to the above site, so that only the introductory voice-overs to the various sections can be accessed and not the main content. We are working on this. In the meantime, if IAS could please remove the above posting - again, sincere apologies. David Saks

Comments

[Lawrence]

offtopic. You guys going to be bringing up the pathetic Goldstone report? I mean it is the biggest story about Israel this week, the latest egregious disgrace in the war against the Jews, and uh Goldstone is South African and a "Jew".

worth checking out Michael Oren's response and Michael Freund today in the JPost. Also Melanie Phillips at the Spectator.

Goldstone has set the bar lower than any SA Jew in history in the war of hate against Israel, with this we-all-saw-it-coming-a-mile-off Judenhass report. Yes his disgraceful actions are far worse than Ronnie Kasrils, or a propagandist like Zapiro - because Goldstone pretends to be a friend of Israel and says that he only wants peace blabla. So his hypocrisy and self-righteousness surpasses even Kasrils who at least is open in his support for the terrorist jihad against the Jews. So Goldstone does far more damage, damage that a thug like Kasrils can only dream of doing against the Jew nation.

Or is there some reason Mike and Steve you don't want to offend Goldstone? I can guess without bothering to check - the SA media lapping this report up in self-righteous anti-Semitic glee just like the rest of the world. Goldstone's name will go down in Jewish history as one of the worst Judenratts in our time.

of course Mike and Steve if they could ever be bothered to bring it up, would never call a spade a spade. At the worst, Goldstone is simply naive to them, I wouldn't even think the IAS team would go as far as calling him a dupe, even though he is. He is much much worse than that though. I think Goldstone really does have holes in his head. And that's pretty much the kindest thing I can say about him.

[Steve]

Lawrence, you been reading "how to win friends and influence people" again?

[Shaun]

Friends,
Perhaps some of what Lawrence wrote is a little off key, but he does raise some interesting questions.
As expected Goldstone concluded that Israeli action in Gaza were bad, the IDF used excessive force, shot innocent Palestinians, caused a humanitarian crises, blocked ambulances, raped goats, killed chickens, blocked food delivery and destroyed civilian infrastructure.
As was mentioned earlier on Israeli news: the Goldstone commission, wrote their findings and didn’t let the facts confuse their conclusion.

Despite the short term fall out, Israel will continue to defend its citizens and this report like so many other UN sanctioned anti-Israel actions will be shelved as just another in a string of ridiculous UN attempts to legitimately dismantle Jewish sovereignty.
Goldstone knew what he was getting into when he took this job. Now he needs to live with its outcome. What legacy will he leave behind?

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

I started re-raising this topic on the original Goldstone post, with the question as to "now that it's published is anyone surprised / changed their opinion" in other words, is this outcome anything other than entirely what was foreseen at the time.
___________________________________________
Assuming he's not malicious, it occurs to me, that Goldstone is either incredibly naive, stupid or has an absurdly over-inflated sense of self (i.e. he either thought people hell-bent on demonization might change their minds, he didn't think it through or he thought he could manipulate the outcome) - I'm not sure which of the 3 options make him look worse. Any suggestions?

I'm inclined to think he's just another naive South African blinded by the multi-culti/hopey-changey fall of Apartheid thinking it's a replicable model throughout the world.
___________________________________________
Another question:
Should he be put in cherem or similar for the report?
Would it depend on which of a to c you chose?
Is stupidity/hubris "punishable"?
Would it be counter productive (Go Spinoza!)
___________________________________________
And finally:
Off the top of my head apartheid/anc is the only revolution / regime change / land transfer that I can think of that occurred with minimal violence, let's for the sake of the hopeychangers say "no violence". Pretty much every other example I can think of through africa, middle east, far east, asia, america, latin america, EUROPE (middle and eastern) all involved, to put it mildly, considerable violence.
Statistically/practically apartheid would seem to be the outlier - why would anyone rationally expect it to be a replicable model?

[Lawrence]

I have been trying to understand the mentality/psychology of Goldstone, it's difficult to say what makes him tick.

I don't think he tried to manipulate the outcome of the report, hoping to soften its uncorroborated and one-sided claims against Israel, you can see this by his staunch defense of the report in toto.

I think it's a combination of factors, in fact I think a whole psychological report of several hundred pages (as long as this farcical Goldstone commission report on Gaza itself) on Goldstone would be necessary to do justice to Goldstone's mental abberation.

One thing that may sound strange, but I think relevant is the obvious point - Golstone is a judge, and a highly respected one, given his previous role as judge in UN investigations of the Yugolsav civil war, in South Africa blabla. A judge of his stature, not only in SA, but internationally, has the highest level of respect and seemingly benign wise authority from "respectable" society. More to the point, Golstone emobodies respectability and the 'good' Law as much as any "respectable" citizen in a position of authority in the Western world. Yet frankly there is nothing more odious than "respectability", it is hypocritical convention, with all its often sinister connotations. Hypocrtical and often unjust and absurd conventions and legalities masquerading as morality. Respectability is a false and inverted "value". Respectability is a false appearance of moral worth, when looking at conventional respectable society (in SA and the world) it is barbaric, hypocritical and institutionalised ruthlessness propped up by the Law. True reformers and the like have always poured scorn on respectable society for being exactly this - Dickens and Steinbeck were writers who expressed the hypocrisies and cruelties of "respectable" society as well as any. My point is that Goldstone doesn't just have the admiration of a barbaric, stupid and immoral "respectable" Western society, he embodies it. He is it. He is desperate for their approval and admiration, given his own "respectability". And one thing that unites respectable conventional Western "intellectual" society, from Highgate to Barcelona. from Cape Town to Cape Cod, is their salon anti-Semitism. So earning their approval and admiration, (the BBC predictably has predictably praised Goldstone to the skies) he goes along with their anti-Semitic (disguised as liberal human rights) agenda, in fact in order to earn their highest accolades this is what he has to do most of all. There is nothing among respectable salon Western society that earns its approbation more than Jew-baiting, so long as this Jew-baiting takes the respectable Orwellian form of anti-Israelism under the umbrella term "human rights". Goldstone is like the dog performing tricks for its master, getting a pat on the head and a treat for a job well done. Goldstone knows who his master is, respectable anti-Semitic society and he has done his job well, telling them what they want to hear. Naturally this is not conscious nor deliberate on Goldstone's part, he does not know what he is doing nor why, hence his rationalisations, justfications, his cognitive dissonance - he could not knowingly do what he did, he does it unawares, like a sleepwalking zombie. This is no excuse - it's just the way it is.

Chag Sameich everybody.

[Iok Sotot, Eater of Souls]

It seems none of the posters on this page can say for sure why Goldstone made the judgement that he did. He is, as Lawrence pointed out highly respectable and held in high regard by most of the world. In the abscence of pictures of Goldstone in a Hitler Youth uniform or leaked emails between him and the Ayatollah you guys seem to have three main theories.
1) Goldstone has gone insane
2) Goldstone is stupid
3) Goldstone craves the approval of the jew-hating global establishment so much he has jumped at the oppertunity to betray his family and people.

Of course, the possibility that Israel did commit war crimes is not discussed. Why? Because the Israeli government said so. End of story.

Ziothugs around the world should catch a wake-up. A few decades ago the IDF could wipe the floor with 3 arab armies at the same time without breaking too much of a sweat. These days Israel has to bomb women and kids with jets to put lead in their pencil.
Time's running out for compromise Ziothugs.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Iok,

As you may have noticed, but apparently failed to appreciate, the discussion isn't about the conclusions of the report - simply because conclusions are only relevant when the process that produced them is sound.

Hence, the discussion is correctly framed as "how did Goldstone allow himself to get sucked into such a deeply flawed process" - a question all the more pertinent given Goldstone's early comments on the mandate and his sleight of hand in rephrasing it.

What is interesting, is how you pretend to be such a clear thinker, and yet apparently are happy to conclude Israel committed war crimes based on "eye witness testimony" from some rather bitter people held hostage by a totalitarian theological police state, assorted other known liars and a few people with axes and grindstones. Moreover, you choose to believe this oover reports from a first world democratic army produced with perhaps more transparency than prudence would favour, and one "as yet" not caught lying.

[Iok Sotot, Eater of Souls]

Why would IDF troops be lying RF1? Perhaps they picked up the Hamas jew-hating virus while they were trashing civilian homes.
Or,there are still a few isrealis left that have enough integrity to call a spade, a spade.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

[Shaun]

IOk

Perhaps you should read a little bit more about these testimonies which have already been discredited by, Zamir, the head of the academy, the author of these stories.
The same is true for the fake admissions of “soldiers” from breaking the silence, none of them could recount first hand experiences and all admitted to hearing either hearing rumors or recalled stories second hand.
Yes they are lying!!
I suggest you try this link for real testimonies http://www.soldiersspeakout.com/
These accounst are neither anonymous nor told second hand.
Funny how they don’t need to hide their identities unlike the other “soldiers”

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Nice Iok, lose the argument, clutch at alternative straws, don't talk to the point. Straight out of the Zinny playbook.

[Iok Sotot, Eater of Souls]

@Shaun

Nice little site, slick multimedia, high production values. Must have cost a bomb. If the soldiers are telling the truth about helping Gazans save their animals and cleaning old ladies houses, then good for them. Standwithus international also seems like an interesting organisation. Too bad the alumni pages are in hebrew, but I did notice Mark Regev in one of the pictures, who is unquestionably a professional liar of the highest rank. Also some pictures of Condi Rice, a war criminal, getting buddy-buddy with SWUers. All in all I don't know what to make of this now.
The more attention I pay to the Israel/Palistine situation the more I get the feeling that information has degraded, spun, and manipulated beyond the point where anyone, even those directly involved, can tell what's real or not. This is surely the kind of thing Jean Baudrillard was getting at with his Simulacrum.

That said, if I was an IDF service person ratting out psycho baby killer comrades I'd probably try and keep my name out of it for my own safety. Why the hell would they lie anyway? It can't be for the fame. Maybe they have trouble getting laid and and an Iranian agent promised them 40 virgins in the afterlife if they helped undermine Israel's image as the most humane ethnic cleansers on the planet?
Anyone have more likely explanations for these servicemen to turn traitor?

I hope we can agree that both sides have every incentive to lie and produce black propaganda and unless you or RF1 are Bibi's security advisor or Mossad agents with high security clearence you're probably as likely to know the real deal as I am.

In short, given the likelyhood that Israeli/Arab conflict will continue escalating and that the fallout (pun intended) won't be confined to the ME, we're all fucked.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

Everyone has incentive to lie. your point is irrelevant. The point is how often either side has been caught in deliberate lies in the past.

More to the core of the issue though, as you point out in your penultimate paragraph, you're speculating on the basis of a number of assumptions. You don't know, you're only trying to weigh probabilities.

Don't speculate that everyone else is in the same position.

[Iok Sotot, Eater of Souls]

Dear RF1

What is the motive for Breaking the Silence and Judge Golstone to lie?

The best you've come up with so far is insanity, stupidity and a bizarre desire to please jew-haters all of which sound like BS to me considering we're talking about Isreali servicemen and a noted Zionist Jew. And hey, the Isreali gov has lied.
They did use white phosphorus on civilian areas and denied it (slimy Mark Regev again) even as I watched women and kids run while the stuff rained down around them on Al-Jazeera.

I'll speculate whatever I damn well please, but unlike yourself I won't pass this speculation off as confirmed fact.

[Religious Fundamentalist 1]

The motive for BtS to lie is simple. The fact that you even ask the question belies your rudimentary knowledge of the conflict.

Goldstone is more difficult, hence the speculation. But as i pointed out, and you repeatedly conveniently try to avoid, it's not about his motivations per se, it's about a flawed process.

As to the phosphorous issue, I won't go into a canard done to death elsewhere. I suggest you do your research, it's clear you're not familiar with the issue in much depth.

[Samuel]

Only the Honourable Judge can answer the questions as to why he took on this witchhunt against Israel and Judaism ,so when will he reappear in SA before a Yiddisher audience to explain himself?

[Shaun]

any serious reaction to this?
http://www.info.gov.za/speeches/2009/09112415151001.htm