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« Rethinking the US-Israel Relationship | Main | Rights and Wrongs in East Jerusalem »

August 05, 2009



there is nothing surprising about any of this, of course it is no less disgusting for all that. I see (elsewhere) about 70 South African Jews could potentially face arrest because of this farcical Judenhass nonsense. And how is the SAJBD going to respond, with their usual cravenness?

Empress Trudy

Will you still be shocked when all SA 'Zionists' are rounded up and 'relocated' for 'security reasons'? I won't be shocked. I give it 3 maybe 4 years.

Castor Troye

It seems the MRN, PSC et al is becoming less and less pro-palestinian and more and more anti-Israel. But then again, isnt that the attitude of the entire Middle Eastern bloc?


Why are “names withheld due to the fact that they are suspects.”
I was under the impression that due process before the law means that suspects should to be informed of their rights.


I think a more appropriate headline, and one far closer to the truth, a concept almost wholly alien to the Zionists on this website, would read "Those who subscribe to the concept of justice and international law Demand Legal Action Against Israel". I am so glad that these groups are taking this much needed action against the disgusting Apartheid state known as Israel, an international pariah state that should be condemned by all civilised countries and have even harsher sanctions levelled against it than were targeted at Apartheid South Africa.


Yes David, these groups that meet with Hizballah and Hamas "subscribe to the concept of justice and international law". No honest person in their right mind can agree with what you just said when it's OK to wine, dine and praise Hizballah and Hamas but Israelis should be arrested. (The MRN have boasted of meeting with them).

You can never prove that it ok to fire rockets targetting Israeli civilians. That is a war crime. People calling for israel to be prosecuted but not H&H are not subscribing to the concept of justice.

As for the allegations by the MRN of Israel kidnapping Palestinian children to take their kidneys, of a Jewish Broederbond conspiracy and of Holocaust denial, if with all that said you can still claim that the MRN "subscribe to the concept of justice and international law" then I can only conclude that you concur with these antisemtic allegations and then you too are an antisemite.

And on a related topic, why are your emails to me from an account that is called "F____ Kh___". When Mike Berger accused you of being someone else because you emailed him with an account with another name, you said that he is your friend and you were visiting him so you used his account.

But even if you were visiting a friend you could have logged onto your Yahoo! F_____ account.

And then you email me with this F_____ account. You are obviously marauding as many different personalities with fake email accounts.

Oh wait, were you at your friend F_____ and you couldn't log into your David Zinn account? Yeah right!

You are just a little fraud who believes its ok to push Holocaust denial, to say that Jews steal Palestinian kidneys in order to get rich, and that it's not a war crime to fire rockets at civilians that are Jewish, but is a war crime to fire on Hamas and Hizballa militants. (I believe you would consider it a war crime even if there were no civilian casualties).

It's not worth debating you, given these unrepentant views and your fraud email accounts. But your voice can be heard. From now, if you want, I'll even copy your comments to your own little thread on this blog that I'll create for you. You seem unwilling to create your own blog, so I'll create a little david zinn page on IAS and post all your comments there. Readers can still read them if they like, and can respond in the comments, and trash your logic the way RF1 did when you initially visited this blog. I'll even link to it from the front page so that we don't deny your little hypocritical voice from the right to be heard.


When have I ever denied the Holocaust or celebrated the actions of Hamas or Hizballah? Please point me in the direction of a comment where I made any of these sentiments even remotely manifest? Oh, what's that, you were just making another ridiculously idiotic non sequitur, as is the Zionist way. Can't say I'm surprised.

Let's slightly alter that paragraph of yours:

You can never prove that it(sic) ok to fire rockets targetting [Palestinian] civilians. That is a war crime. People calling for [H&H] to be prosecuted but not [Israel] are not subscribing to the concept of justice.

So right back at ya, not that I have ever subscribed to the idea that two wrongs make a right. But would you say that the ANC and other groups fighting for the liberation of South Africa during our long, dark, national trauma were as responsible for the Apartheid system as the white Nationalists? Or should we perhaps, if our brains have at least a degree of functionality, notice that those who actually have the most power have the most responsibility in any power relations dynamic?

Both Hamas and Hizbollah, the latter indirectly and the latter directly, are creations of Israel, in case you didn't know that. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't, considering how precious little you and the other Zionist fanatics around here seem to know about what's really happening, and has happened, in the Israel/Palestine conflict.

As for RF1 "trashing" my logic, don't make me guffaw. RF1 is an absolute joke, though I will admit that he's the best debater that this site has ever managed to proffer to counter my rationality, logic, facts and morality, though he still possessed precious little of the first three qualities and nothing of the last one. I utterly destroyed each and every one of RF1's arguments, as I always will with any Zionist, and you're more than welcome to re-read those debates we had to confirm this for yourself, though your warped Zionist brain won't allow you to concede anything to superior logic or moral philosophy. That's why he sat out the last round I had with Shaun and others because he knew I would absolutely trounce him yet again. Only in your mind did RF1 even inflict so much as a flesh wound against my arguments, and only in your mind is Israel a noble country beset on all sides by horrendous anti-Semites and awful slanderers who hope for the country's destruction.

The only "unrepentant views" are those held by the likes of you and Shaun, and others on this site, who openly condone the murder of Palestinian children based on its efficacy. That story about Palestinian children being kidnapped for their kidneys may have been false, but there is ample evidence that thousands of young Palestinians have been kidnapped over the years by the Israeli authorities and tortured, as well as being held for months, sometimes years, without being charged. At least the kidney story demonstrates that there was some purpose to the kidnapping, and not just to deprive people in the prime of their lives, who are already living under a despicable occupation, of what little freedom they have. No doubt you will see in a 12 year old throwing rocks at an Israeli tank an existential threat of singular magnitude, as is your paranoid persuasion.

I have compiled the arguments repeatedly trotted out by Zionists in defence of Israel, and added a new one as well. You've touched on at least a few of these in your above diatribe:

Israel is a perfect state, unprecedented in the history of the world in its gloriously magnificent behaviour, and all criticisms are either distortions, outright lies, or grotesque exaggerations.

Because other countries commit far worse atrocities, the Israeli government should be free from any censure.

Any focus on Israel is at least always partially racist, even if it is plainly clear that the person making the criticism isn't anti-Semitic and may even be a Jew himself.

Zionists always know better than those who witness Israeli atrocities firsthand, even if said Zionists live thousands of kilometres away from the site where the atrocities took place. (Related to the first point).

The surrounding Arab countries are all anti-democratic and generally comprise vicious thugs, so Israel is right to adopt a paranoid siege mentality at all times and with it a virulent strain of Islamaphobia. This despite the historical record showing that Israel has basically started all the major wars it has fought since the founding of the state, in particular the '67 war which, apart from the founding catastrophe in 47-48, is at the heart of the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Any attempt at a real balanced look at the nature of the Israel/Palestine situation is automatically dismissed as unbalanced. The same goes for any inquiry into whether or not war crimes have been committed in any one of the numerous wars Israel has conducted against the Palestinian population. However, looking only at Israel and its threats, with no reference to the Palestinians, is instinctively to be considered a "balanced" view of the situation. The term "bias" is used in a similar vein.

Israel is unfairly singled out for criticism throughout the world, even if, in the real world, the opposite is true, as Israel is the only country that so-called civilised people make excuses for when the state commits horrendous atrocities.

To defend the purity of Israel's image the established historical record concerning the establishment of Israel and the many wars it has fought in must be falsified. In its place a mythical vision of a plucky & noble country which is always under attack, but never the aggressor, must be erected.

If all else fails, smear anyone who criticises Israel as anti-Semitic.

It is indeed "not worth debating" such thoroughly dishonest, callous and wilfully ignorant individuals such as yourself and most of the other Zionists on this site. Thank you, though, for helping me gain a greater insight into, and thus the means to counter, the Zionist mindset and philosophy. Really appreciated that joke about my "hypocritical voice" in light of all that has gone before. Priceless.

Oh, and I'm the "little fraud" when virtually everyone here uses obvious pseudonyms or only their first name. Give me a break and get down off your rotting wooden high horse



correction: Both Hamas and Hizbollah, the latter indirectly and the former directly, are creations of Israel, in case you didn't know that.


I have heard from several ppl that Farid Esack and others laid formal charges against David Benjamin on Friday at the Johanneburg Central Police Station. Is this true. No-one could actually confirm their sources.


people don't feed the delusional Jew-hating troll DZ. You are not going to get him to change his mind, for one he has no mind to speak of, so just ignore him.


There is an interesting article: The Grid of Disputation. How to engage with views with which you disagree:

This thought has led me to introduce what I hope is a helpful graphical device, which I call the Grid of Disputation. It’s just a reminder that, when it comes to other people’s views on controversial issues, they should be classified within a two-dimensional parameter space, not just on a single line of “agree/disagree.” The other dimension is the all-important “sensible/crazy” axis.

The Grid of Disputation

There’s no question that there is a place for mockery in the world of discourse; sometimes we want to engage with crackpots just to make fun of them, or to boggle at their wrongness. But for me, that should be a small component of one’s overall rhetorical portfolio. If you want to play a constructive role in an ongoing cultural conversation, the sizable majority of your disputational effort should be spent engaging with the best people out there with whom you disagree — confronting the strongest possible arguments against your own view, and doing so with a respectful and sincere attitude.

Empress Trudy

You are 2 years, at most, away from being forced to publicly deny Judaism and Israel as a form of loyalty oath under punishment of long incarceration or exile, in South Africa. SA is on the verge of becoming the next Nazi nation.


Sorry Trudy, you fall on the crackpot axis with that one.

By the way, isn't it Israel that is closest to implementing a loyalty oath?



1. I did not say that you yourself deny the Holocaust. But given your praise and support of the MRN you obviously do not believe there is anything wrong with denying it. I'll continue to judge you by those whom you choose to support and praise and here you have picked a foul bunch of folks.

2. Using a pseudonym in the comments of blogs is commonly accepted practice. But pretending to be someone you are not through the use of various email addresses is not so well accepted. Especially when you deliberately change your ethnicity to achieve some goal. Using my first name Steve is fine. Using the name Iqbal and pretending to be a Muslim with pro-Israel positions - not so fine.

Empress Trudy

I don't know if Israel is or not. The facts as presented here are what they are. Once you start randomly rounding up your own citizens because of their simple membership in another group, in this case an army of another country AND THAT IS THE ONLY CLAIM OF THEIR GUILT. And then charging them with so called war crimes because of that member, irrespective of the actual facts, then, no, I don't believe I am a crackpot. Go ask the American Nisei of WW2 if they were crackpots. As far as anyone can tell not a single American Nisei was ever charged with an actual crime let alone prosecuted or charged. But their ethnicity was sufficient to have hundreds of thousands of them locked up in POW camps in the US for more than 3 years.


Sue that is correct. Here is the link


DZ claims, "Both Hamas and Hizbollah, the latter indirectly and the former directly, are creations of Israel, in case you didn't know that."

But, as usual, this is nonsense. See:

safe key

Jews live a safe comfortable and anti-Semitic free life in SA. The new governor of the Reserve bank is Jewish. Three constitutional court judges including past chief justice is Jewish. Jewish structures including the SAJB have good governmental relationships. Lets not become paranoid chevre

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