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« Rising Antisemitism in South Africa? | Main | The Hamas Charter - Selected Excerpts »

December 29, 2008



"Despite my past personal objections, I really hope that the SAJBD’s policy a quiet diplomacy with the ANC government pays off this time."

you mean despite personal objections, you hope that the SAJBD's policy of pathetic cowardice and spinelessness pays off this time, even though their cowardice has never paid off before. I understand, we mustn't offend Kasrils and the other Hamas supporters in the ANC, otherwise they might hate us and support Hamas.

As for the latest round of IAF airstikes on the darlings of the world - HAMAS, think it a coincidence that an election is round the corner? Why wait until now to launch major airstrikes, when Hamas have been doing this for years, ever since we left Gaza in 2005, which we should never have done. Lipni and Olmert pretending to be tough, when all they have been doing the last couple of months is releasing terrorists as "good-will gestures", and Jews in Sderot have been living in bomb shelters for months, years even, not that we did anything months ago. An occasional airstrike on an occasional rocket launcher oh woopee.

Rockets have been landing in the Negev this whole year (and before then of course), suddenly the airforce lauches major strikes. What, was their some magic number of rockets that we permit to target Jews for death, and when they surpass the daily quota (of what thirty, forty rockets?) then we decide to do something about it? Maybe Hamas should launch only fifteen rockets a day at the Negev, just keep the numbers down, and Israel will do nothing? A lot of people in Israel are pretty cynical about the timing of this, trust me I live in Israel, and this is what quite a few people are saying.

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just saying what a lot of people in the Israeli street are saying, rightly or wrongly. Not that we don't need to destroy Hamas, but it's been too long in coming and I don't think we are going to destroy Hamas, watch Israel back off soon enough - but who knows, nobody really, it's war, entirely unpredictable, what if Hezbollah join the fray? not beyond the bounds of possibility.

It's sickening to see all the support in the world for Hamas, but tell me something I don't know.


Guys, wake up. The ANC has an agenda and that does not include the Jews. They have condemned Israel but not Mugabe. Mugabe is an outright murdering dictator. However, the ANC has taken zero action against Mugabe. I am not comparing Israel to Zimbabwe. To the contrary, I believe Israel is rightly defending itself. So I think I’ve made a clear point. The ANC is only looking after its own political interests and this is not the first time that their political interests have clashed with their principled or moral interests.


Lets take bets how long before the next 'We are Jews who hate Israel' petition spring up in the Mail&guardian and other newpapers.
A week? Will they wait until they have got back from their holidays in Cuba and China?


Come on my fine Bolshevik Zionophobic Jew-hating Jew friends, you would NOT want your friends on campus or at work do you think you are one of those filthy Zionists who believe those backward Israelis have a right to love.
Come on and sign the latest "Jews Against Isreal' petition and show your love for Hamas and Hizbullah and your desire to see every Jew in Israel destroyed!


Come on my fine Bolshevik Zionophobic Jew-hating Jew friends, you would NOT want your friends on campus or at work do you think you are one of those filthy Zionists who believe those backward Israelis have a right to live.
Come on and sign the latest "Jews Against Isreal' petition and show your love for Hamas and Hizbullah and your desire to see every Jew in Israel destroyed!

Been there done that

anyone who doesn't realize the pogroms are coming to SA is deluding themself.


Stupid, I agree with you. The ANC has shown tremendous hypocrisy when it comes to foreign policy. but what they dont understand it has a very high cost. today in most western capitals the anc has lots its moral capital. it is seen as just another African country.


Mike, that’s quite a sweeping statement about Africa with an implication that all of Africa is devoid of morals. Hahaha. I like to find the humor in a world obsessed with political correctness.

There are new powers emerging in the world, like the super power China. South Africa will become more offensive towards the west with time because they feel protected by the growing East. Africans begin to feel they don’t have anything to lose if they piss off the West. But the real cost is that the principles of the people of South Africa is compromised. But hey, since when has the ANC cared?

Here is a very interesting post summarizing a book called the Clash of the Civilizations:


At this time, and whatever the reasons for these raids (I agree with Lawrence's cynicism), no Jew can stand by while civilians are being killed. Civilians - whether Jewish or Palestinian - are not fair game in any conflict. Jews must condemn the killing of civilians in Gaza.


I just read the posts on the other comment page and I am disgusted. I do not post anywhere else. I occasionally post here because I thought this was a forum where young Jews can have honest and open debate. I am not a Jew-hater. I am a Jew! And unlike some of you, I am very religious. My view is that we must act according to the injunctions of the Torah and we must expose the wrongdoing wherever we see it. Killing civilians is wrong. It is wrong when Hamas does it and it is wrong when Israel does it. Jews must be consistent to our principles and not be blinded by our support for Israel. I support Israel but not blindly. I will not support Israel or anyone else when my principles as a Jew are being violated. The vitriol that has been heaped upon me shows who the real Jew-haters in this forum are. It's not me. It is people like Gary and Lawrence who love Israel blindly but will not listen to other Jews expressing their deep-felt angst about the country that acts in our name but acts against our principles (sometimes). Do you think this is easy for me to say? Do you think I would say something like this in any other forum but here? Do you understand what it means to be a conscious Jews? You disgust me.

Religious Fundamentalist 1


I challenge you to present a Halachic case justifying your claims that Gazan civilians should be spared in this conflict. And moreover, that there is an iota of halachic permissibility in putting soldiers lives' at risk in favour of the civilians of a hostile nation.

I expect you to deal with what type of war you would consider this to be, and de facto I suppose you might want to deal with whether the pull out from Gaza in the first place was Halachicly permissible. Perhaps you could as an aside decide if we have an obligation to reconquer all of the biblical land and deport as required.

To keep the post short, feel free to cite your sources from psukim, gmora, rishonim and any relevant achronim and make only your concluding argument. You can send your full argument to Mike, I suspect he would be glad to publish it. Here's a hint: Tzitz Eliezer.

Israel regularly acts against my principles. And I regularly voice my opinion. I am conscious of what the Torah demands of me, and it demands that I strongly denounce your immorality, and your false claims that the Halacha would support your position.

Indeed, I strongly believe Halacha would support, if not demand, a full scale carpet bombardment of Gaza to fully deter any future risk to genuinely innocent life, and in particular Jewish life. And I further put it to you that the Halacha demands that Israel deal harshly with the local arab ferment of violence and immorality.

Being "religious" in Judaism requires, inter alia, an absolute devotion to, and understanding of Halacha. "very religious" doesn't mean getting choked and tearful because you see people bringing destruction on themselves, or because you feel a warm fuzzy feeling everytime you step into a shul.

And finally, in your "hava amina" you still have to at least admit that the blame for civilians being killed in Hamas sits wholely and completely in the lap of Hamas.



Interesting comments, especially when you quote the Guardian as you source. quoted the same eye witness account.

Civilian deaths are regrettable but war will always cause death and destruction.
In order to end slavery the Union army of the North had to desolate the South during the American civil war.
In order to completely eradicate the Nazis, Brandenburg was set alight by the allies.

As a religious Jew who thinks that we should “act according to the injunctions of the Torah”, are you familiar with Din Rodeff?
The parameters are laid rather clearly in Baba Batra and San Hedirn.
Similarly, are you aware of the Chafetz Hayims ruling on a Jew who is Motzie shem ra to the Memshal Zara?
His ruling was taken from the infamous Gomorrah Sukkah of Kamtza and Bar Kamtzah.
Where do you hold on all of these issues?


ISRAELI citizens have been under the threat of daily attack from Gaza for years. In the week before the justified Israeli anti-terror incursion into Gaza hundreds of missiles and mortar shells were fired at Israeli civilian communities, including the firing of 80 missiles on a single day.

When Israeli children were killed by Hamas rockets the world was silent. Once again those who would like to see Israel destroyed and its people subjected to genocide are falling over themselves to join in the racist hyena chorus against Israel, using as excuse the fact that she finally responded to thousands of rockets launched by Hamas and Islamic Jihad aimed at Israel‘s men, women and children.

Hamas rains rockets down on Israel, targeting Jewish men, women and children for death, in accordance with their charter which calls for the killing of all Jews, which is what led to these Israeli air strikes on Hamas in the first place. On the hundreds of rockets that have rained down on Israel they have nothing to say.

Hamas are responsible for the Israeli response, since if they did not target Jews with terrorist rocket attacks, there would be no Israeli response at all.

One marvels how in a world filled with enormous evils, such as totalitarian states that make their countries into large prison camps (Iran and North Korea), that massacre and enslave millions of citizens (Sudan), that wage deadly war against their own populations (Zimbabwe and Myanmar), that destroy entire cultures (as China is doing in Tibet), it would seem a puzzle as to why the Jewish state and America are the two most vilified countries in the world.

Where were all these hysterical hyenas when thousands of Jewish women and children were incinerated by Hamas and Islamic Jihad? When hundreds of Jewish children were shot in their beds by Arab murderers?

We will never again walk quietly to the gas chambers. We will react when our men, women and children are killed in cold blood, and we will hold on to what belongs to us.
Israel, in a fight for her survival against a ruthless enemy that targets her women and children, and aims at the destuction of every Jew in Israel, always does all in it's power to avoid harming Arab civillians.
Compare this to the Allied bombing of Dresden during World War II, or the horrific atomic destruction by the USA of the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Even though the Palestianists will continue to work towards our destruction, they will not succeed. Bless Israel forever.


Top Rabbis: IDF May Fire at Civilian Rocket Source


Mike I agree with you, ANC has shown tremendous hypocrisy and it is now morally bankrupt, it's support of Mugaby has left it without any credibility. It is not, however, alone. If we condemn the ANC, as we should, for supporting and propping up the dictator Mugaby we should equally any country who supports any dictator. I am specifically thinking of Mohamed Hosni Mubarak the leader of what is the brutal police state of Egypt. Eqypt's biggest trading partner is the EU and has receives billions in military funds from the US. Should we condemn the EU and the US unless we too are to be be hypocrites?

Countries do not act based on morality they act based on interests (in the George Washington sense), expecting them to act morally (as they claim) is rather naive.

Happy New Year to everyone.



I can not comment on the Halachic argument. In this case I am happy to defer to Hillel and Shaun. If you would like to write up your own religious response, I would be happy to post it as Hillel has challenged.

But I do want to say something on your killing civilians comment. I dont think it is possible morally to compare Israel's behavior and that of Hamas. True both are responsible for killing innocent civilians but their intentions are very different. And as we know in secular law intention is very important. Israel is hitting legitimate military targets. Civilians have by mistake been caught in the cross fire. Hamas on the other hand is deliberately targeting innocents. It’s the equivalent of murder verses culpable homicide in criminal law.

Lastly we welcome diverse views here and debate. Don’t be put off by the vitriol of some. We all have strong opinions.

Religious Fundamentalist 1


I submit that it goes (way) beyond just "intention":

Hamas deliberately uses its citizens (whether by force or they volunteer) as shields. This in itself should absolve Israel of responsibility, EVEN if they made no deliberate effort to avoid civilian casualties.

Moreover, it goes without saying that if it was possible to stop rocket attacks without hurting civilians, it would be done. It is Hamas, and Hamas alone who make this impossible. (and who are in contravention of numerous provisions of Geneva and generally acceptable conduct in War, a fact deliberately ignored or glossed over by Palestinian sympathisers)

And further, Hamas was voted in by an overwhelming majority - more so than in most democracies. The population bears a responsibility for their choices, including their active and tacit support for terrorism.

Ignoring these key distinctions, as well as the intention, would seem to reflect a very narrow view.

Egypt and Fatah are blaming this on Hamas, as is the house of Saud (if you read between the lines). That every non-Arab (e.g. Erin) Palestinian sympathiser that I've read to date is backing Hamas against Israel suggests that they are less Palestinian sympathisers than Israel's enemies. I'll leave it to Erin to explain her reasoning.

And to reiterate your final comment - we do welcome diverse opinions and hope Erin and anyone else who is wrong ;-) will continue to post. As I said before, "tedious"

Religious Fundamentalist 1

Interesting question raised:
Hamas clearly has put a lot of preparation into preparing this war. Tunnels, weapons and training.

They certainly knew there would (eventually) be an Israeli response.

How come they're running out of hospital beds and supplies?
How come they have no bomb shelters?


Benjamin, I think the point is not about who you are condemning. The ANC is silently; and then again at times not so silently, condemning you. That was the point.

Regarding your comment, “Countries do not act based on morality they act based on interests (in the George Washington sense), expecting them to act morally (as they claim) is rather naive.” If you don’t expect any morality from your government, then you won’t get any honesty from them. By expecting that morality, you will not get honesty all the time, but at least you will get it sometimes. That’s being very realistic.


I disgust you Erin? Trust me the feeling is mutual. Is the concept of self-loathing so beyond you? Do you know that back in the 1960s and 70s black people in South Africa would buy skin "lightening" cream, so as to damage their skins to look more "white", they were so ashamed to be black, the Nat government told them they were inferior and they believed it. The "Black Consciousness" of Steve Biko was about redressing all that. I used to think at the time (well a little later I was too young back then) at least Jews don't fall into self-loathing, believing the propoganda of our enemies who hate us to death. How wrong I was! I don't think I have ever been more wrong about anything in my life.

Interesting that your Hamas agitprop source was the Guardian.
The Guardian is a well known anti-Israel paper, that has been caught telling so many big blood libel lies about Israel over the years (I can prove it if you like), and perpetually whitewashing the crimes of Arab Muslim terrorists and regimes, when not justifying them. The only reasonable explanation for this double-standard, hypocrisy and deceit is that the Guardian, like much of their readership is anti-Semitic. So you cite an anti-Semitic source as legitimate for your "news" re the Jew nation, What does that makes you, Erin? at best, a dupe.

Erin can you give us the names of the news sources/journalists/scholars/bloggers and the like that you take as reasonable and fair re Israel and news in general, other than al-Guardian and Al-Jazeerah which praises suicide bombers as "martyrs" and threw a party for the Jew-child killer terrorist Sami Kuntar when he was released by Israel. And if you cite sources that are guilty of the same and similar lies re Israel as al-Guardian, am I free to call you anti-Semitic, and if not why not?

Erin, my challenge to you remains open, post up that Guardian drivel you cited on any neo-Nazi and/or jihad forum and when they praise it unreservedly, explain to us why you endorse something as "news" re the Jew nation, that is likewise endorsed by neo-Nazis and jihadists praying for the annihilation of several millions of Jews (again). Or will you just continue to feign outrage? Hey I already know the answer.

Gary when will the self-loathing Jew brigade sign a pro-Hamas petition, don't know, maybe one week from now, maybe ten days, maybe we should put up a betting pool with odds, what do u think?

Here is Lawrence the bookie's betting odds on the self-hating SA Jew brigade (henceforth SHSAJB) and when they sign a petition condemming Israel for fighting back against the Muslim Jihad, and not being good Jewish sheep and sitting still, and let themselves be picked off like in the good ol days by the heroic Hamas....

5-1 odds that a letter of the above kind to the newspapers like the M&G by the SHSAJB and/or petiton is signed within 5 days.

3-1 odds that a letter/petition whatever by the SHSAJB is sent or signed, sealed and delivered within 5 - 10 days.

5-4 odds that a letter/petition is signed and the like within 10 - 21 days.

1-1 odds that a letter/petition is NOT signed at all, delivered or the like in any form within the next two months (what do you think, I want to lose money? I'm a bookie not a charity)

Minimum bets are 100 NIS (you think I want rands, with prices in Tel Aviv?) This betting is tax-deductible because I say so. Betting monies to be paid direct to my offshore bank account in Lagos, Nigeria. E-mail me at IhoperedRonnieis [email protected] for relevant banking details.

Trust me to honour all bets. You have my word.

happy new year.

Blacklisted Dictator

To all and sundry,

Some new year questions...

(1) Do you think that Israel will stop hostilities prior to installing a Fatah regime?

(2) Is there any point withdrawing and just allowing Hamas to resume power?

(3) Why didn't Israel attack Hamas harder and more regularly over the last few years?( One mighty conclude that by doing nothing Israel actually encouraged the attacks.)

(4) What other nation state would have done nothing for so long when being attacked by missiles?


I shall attempt to answer these questions BD..

Question 1 - in order to install a Fatah regime (which has its own problems but that is another issue) Israel will have to utterly destroy Hamas, and that entails a ground op, and who knows what is going to happen here?

Question 2 - no but expecting intelligence and foresight from Israeli (and world) politicians is like expecting the ANC to tackle crime and poverty

Question 3 -
1 demoralised, all the anti-Israel agitprop from the West has taken its toll
2 the cost in blood and money,
3 the human failing of 'if we ignore a problem for long enough it will go away'.

Question 4 - none, and none would have been condemned for fighting back, except for the Jew nation...because it is the Jew nation.

Incidentally in TA life goes on as normal, for now.....

Religious Fundamentalist 1

Nothing "normal" about life in TA, except perhaps in the attempted (but dismally failed) Hertzl "I'm a hellenist wannabe" sense.


Sorry, I just liked the nick so used it for mysefl. I didnt know there was a number 2 and dont know how Brett is.


Hillel, don't diss Theodor Herzl, he was one of the founders of our nation.

Religious Fundamentalist 1

No worries "Anon" - RF3 is open for you.

Since we're mentioning Brett, I request that the readership please say some tehillim, learn something, or head over to, and say the mi-sheberach for the chayalim.
They should all return safely with their mission accomplished.

Herzl for all his vision and the good he tried to do was NOT one of the founder's of our nation. The "founders" of our nation include Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And you might want to consider some leaders who made the hard choices at certain key junctures e.g. "תן לי יבנה וחכמיו"

At best Herzl was of the more recent in a long line of iconoclasts, visionaries and thinkers.

Without denigrating his contribution, I would nevertheless argue that he was more of a misguided, lost Jew with tenuous links to yiddishkeit and a desire to assimilate and hellenize which end he thought would best be accomplished by "normalising" Jews into a nation-state.

That's worked well, hasn't it?


Well, Hillel, he wasn't one of the founders of our nation, but he was instrumental in helping return the Jews to Eretz Yisrael and to RE-found the State of Israel.

And what is yoyr alternative to us Jews having a nation-state in which to exercise our rights?
We've always been presecuted.
The Holocaust happened before we had a nation-state of our own re-established.

Religious Fundamentalist 1

Gary, so we can now agree that he wasn't a founder, but a potential "re-founder". Fabulous. Well done, you've turned a humourous "aside" into an arbitrary argument.

By exercise our rights, do you refer to the right to pray in our Holiest site(s), or the right to express displeasure with practices not in keeping with our tradition, or perhaps the right to live quietly in secure borders?

Moreover, stop using the Holocaust as a crutch for any argument. It's irrelevant in this dialogue, it makes you sound intellectually stunted, and you cheapen the Holocaust conceptually.

I didn't suggest we'd be better off without a state. All I stated was that Hetzl's intention to "normalise" and assimilate didn't work so well. In fact, it appears to have made things worse. Deal with it.

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