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« Crossing Swords - Q&A with Pollak and Isaacs 1 of 3 | Main | Terror at Chabad Mumbai—A personal reflection »

December 02, 2008

Comments

Lawrence

Doron writes above in response to me writing this:

----------------------

The Hamas charter calls for the killing of every Jewish man, woman and child on the face of the earth, do you blame the settlements and occupation for this?
- Lawrence

Dear Lawrence,

I am obliged to point out that the Hamas Charter does not call for “the killing of every Jewish man, woman and child on the face of the earth”.

------------------------

Doron then writes further down.....

"It also [The Hamas Charter] contains this charming phrase from the Koran:

“The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!” [14]"


Uh Doron do you not see how you contradict yourself here? What is it about the above that doesn't unambiguously translate to killing ALL THE JEWS, which is what I wrote? No the relevant passage from the Hamas Charter I was referring to (the one you quote above!) does not literally, word for word say "every Jewish man, woman, child on the face of the earth" must be killed, as I wrote, it just says (as you quote)
"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! "

I did not intend to give a word for word direct quotation with all the punctuation, of the pertinent part of the Hamas Charter I was referring to; after all I did not put up what I wrote in quotation marks, even though you put what I write in quotation marks. What I wrote was a mere summation of the relevant part of the Hamas Charter, not a direct quotation. Talk about pedantry Doron!

I thought that my intent here was and is simply obvious, an aggregate, a summation, a rundown of the pertinent part of the Hamas Charter - the liquidation of Jewry, which your own quote proves the truth of.

Incidentally the first part of the quote "the time will not come.." is in fact a reference to the Judgment Day. In other words there will be no Day of Judgment from on High until the Jews have been killed, (liquidated, exterminated) by Allah's faithful servants, as the relevant part of the Hamas charter Doron quotes, unambiguously makes frightenly clear. The relevant quote Doron provides (article 7 of the Charter) even makes clear that there will be no place for the Jews to hide, none of them, let me repeat NONE OF THEM, even the vegetation, the rocks will aid the faithful Muslims in killing the Jews as they attempt to hide from the vengeance of Allah's servants. Even nature shares the Hamas faithful's bloodlust and Jew-hatred and seeks the genocide of the Jews! Even Hitler didn't think that the trees shared his Jew-hatred, even Hitler and the Nazis didn't believe the trees and rocks would aid them in making the world Judenrein!

Doron's quotation proves the truth of what I wrote, the Hamas Charter calls for the killing of JEWS without discrimination. Where does it say any are to be spared, the babies, the children, the women Doron? It doesn't, that part of the Hamas Charter Doron quotes to supposedly refute me, only proves my point - the Jews are to be killed (that would mean all of them Doron), even those that hide behind the rocks and trees will be betrayed by them, by Mother Nature herself (who also apparently hates the Jews) and given up to slaughter for Allah's sake. This is very clear from the Hamas Charter which Doron himself quotes, apparently with the intention of proving me wrong!!

Doron do you have holes in your head?

Doron writes again:

"Incidentally, I recently heard Prof Faried Esack, a member of the Human Rights Delegation, remark publicly on the contemptibility of that verse"

Ah yes Prof Esack who as Anthony Posner points out, had this to say re Yad Vahsem (quoting Posner on Esack)

"noting that the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial is “largely” dedicated to Jewish
victims of the Holocaust, he described commemorating one’s own victimhood and “failing
to see how it is tied up with the victimhood of others”, as “hugely problematic”.

On Prof Esack, this is also very relevant:

The University of Minnesota in Minneapolis organised a "Divest from Apartheid Israel Organizing Conference" in April/May 2007. Guess who was a guest speaker?

Here is the relevant part, quoted from the "Divest from Apartheid Israel" conference organisers......

"Saturday, 4/28, 1-6 pm @ Carlson School of Management, U of M West Bank, Rooms L110, L114, L118 and L122.
Attend any of a variety of working groups to discuss how labor, student, religious, and political groups can work towards justice for the Palestinian people. Keynote speaker Farid Esack is a veteran of the struggle against Apartheid in South Africa and a former national commissioner on gender equality appointed by President Nelson Mandela. Farid Esack is currently the William Henry Bloomberg Visiting Professor at Harvard Divinity School. After the conference join us for a "Cafe Intifada", an intellectual salon with interactive theatre, where the audience becomes the occupied and occupier. Learn about the Israeli occupation of Palestine like never before. The “ Café” will be from 7-9 pm at the Bedlam Theatre Fireplace Room, 1501 South 6th St., West Bank, Minneapolis. Sponsored by the Coalition for Palestinian Rights (CPR) For more information...."


Never mind the deceitful reference to apartheid South Africa, Esack spoke at a US university in support of divestment from Israel (that's Israel proper, not Israeli businesses and farms on the West Bank). He has never spoken out in support of divestment from all the other Middle-Eastern nations (where? nowhere) including nations such as Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Egypt etc where oppression, gross human rights violations, tyranny and the denial of many basic civil liberties are routine. Unlike Israel in many of these nations there is very limited freedom of religious expression, in at least one case (Saudi Arabia) if not more, absolutely none, no democratic elections, severely limited or no free press and limited or no freedom of association. Many of these nations sponsor jihadist terror and fund and arm the likes of Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad etc. Yet Esack has not spoken out at any university conference in support of divestment of any of these Muslim nations in the Middle-East (and other tyrannical, reppressive, despotic and authoritarian Muslim and non-Muslim national governments around the globe from Africa to Asia).

How to explain Esack's hypocrisy and double-standards here? The question answers itself. How to explain your respect for him Doron? How to explain his inclusion on the misnamed SAHRD? Don't answer the question Doron. Because of course you can't. Not honestly.

Doron let us know when Esack comments in a public forum on the "contemptibility" of Muslim terrorists torturing and killing Jews in Mumbai (and gunning down other people in hotels and restaurants). Without blaming it on US imperialism or Israeli "apartheid".

Here is an article (delivered as a lecture) of Esack's after the 9-11 attack, centering on 9-11.
http://www.crosscurrents.org/Esack.htm

It reads like Edward Said, slippery as a snake, a pretence at compassion, non-racism, a desire for universal justice etc. It contains though so many of the boiler-plate inaccuracies and lies esp on Saddam (who armed him to the teeth Esack? you have it wrong) and Osama one has encountered ad infinitum from the Muslim "moderate" (that is not) and Internationalist Left this last decade or so. It is fairly standard, albeit slippery apolegetics re Muslim terror, ultimately the usual justification for 9-11 one expects from the likes of him, and yet he also writes this...

"We are now engaged in a collective taqiyyah (dissimulation) with the West; we all pretend that we mean no harm, that Islam is inherently pluralistic and that Islam only means peace. Yet virtually all of our religious institutions and mosques on the Indo-Pak subcontinent and the Middle East espouse the kind of Islam visited upon us by the Taliban and Osama. Osama is not an anachronism. He has followed the letter of the teaching to which I and countless others have been subjected for eight years or more of our lives. These religious institutions, as well as the vast majority of Muslim organizations throughout the world, did not merely fail to condemn the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhist icons; they refused to do so. How could they, given that for centuries they have taught the destruction of everything that does not represent their kind of Islam?"

On occasion, Esack lets the cat out of the bag, and is honest about his faith and yet he always turns it around and ultimately it is the West, America, Israel that is the brunt of his ire and criticisms. He is the conniving sly propogandist who has very few equals, you can never pin him down, his machinations are something else, he weaves and dodges...

In addition Doron also writes:

"If an inclusive human-rights based campaign emerged to impose targeted economic sanctions on Israeli goods and services produced in the West Bank, I would support it"

Yes you and all the anti-Semites of the world. Economic sanctions on Israeli goods produced in the West Bank is also supported by those who DO NOT LIKEWISE support sanctions on goods and services from any other nation in the Middle-East, that would include sanctions on numerous undemocratic and tyrannical regimes across the Middle-East, gross human-rights violators from Libya to Saudi Arabia, from the UAE to Syria. Such hypocrisy and double standards can only be explained by anti-Semitsm/Jew-hatred. Doron how come your position on sanctions re Israeli goods produced on the West Bank is the same as Hamas? How come your position re sanctions on Israeli goods and services produced on the West Bank is supported by Hamas (you can check on it) who have carried out suicide terrorist attacks and terrorist rocket attacks on Jewish men, women and children, praising the terrorists as martyrs and heroes, and continue to do so? How come your postion re sanctions in this regard is identical to the Palestinian Nazi Party, Hamas, which has a charter, as you point, calling for the killing of the Jews?

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Doron,
Re My "Question 6" about Kasrils ... you state in the opening sentence..
"I know little about Ronnie Kasrils’ politics – I’m sure you know more than me."

Are you seriously expecting anybody to believe that you know "little" about the anti-zionist politics of Mr Ronnie Kasrils?

Nave you not read his regular anti-zionist column in "The Mail and Guardian" which is probably commissioned by Mr Drew Forrest (The M&G's deputy anti-zionist editor and SAHRD member) when Ferial is on holiday?

Have you been inhabiting another South Africa in which Ronno Einstein ( NOT the minister of Intelligence) never campaigned 24/7 to denigrate the State of Israel?

Doron, I am sorry to say that I don't believe you. Nobody, with a modicum of common sense, will believe you. It is evident that you are selling us kosher "porkies". But we wont consume them. We know they are tainted even if you "are actively involved in the Jewish community."

In the circumstances, if you are not prepared to answer questions honestly, everything that you write on behalf of The SAHRD will be viewed with a pinch of salt (an ounce of prejudice?).

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Mixed mataphors...
should have written "taken with a pinch of salt (an ounce of prejudice?)"

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Doron,

You write:
"The Hamas Charter also contains this charming phrase from the Koran:

“The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”

(Incidentally, I (Doron) recently heard Prof Faried Esack, a member of the Human Rights Delegation, remark publicly on the contemptibility of that verse.)"

Yes, as you previously wrote, Prof Esack is "wonderfully interseting". An enlightened Islamic scholar. But what do you think of the following Prof Esack comment? Do you think it is contemptible.?..

"noting that the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial is “largely” dedicated to Jewish victims of the Holocaust, Esack described commemorating one’s own victimhood and “failing to see how it is tied up with the victimhood of others”, as “hugely problematic”."

I suppose that instead of finding it "contemptible" you find Esack's comment "wonderfully interesting"? Perhaps when you are next in Jerusalem, you should contact Yad Vashem and ask them to make the appropriate SAHRD "victimhood" adjustments. When these are made, in line with Esack's requirements, you can also then invite Ronnie Kasrils do the brand new "SAHRD/Esack" Yad Vashem ?

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

"If Jews - especially those who settled on the West Bank in violation of international law - are to be offered full citizenship of an independent Palestine, should all Palestinian refugees not be entitled to return to Israel? If not, why not? - Jonathan Berger

Jonathan,
Is The SAHRD campaigning for the restitution of property and right of return to all Jews who were expelled from Arab countries? Perhaps I've missed that point when reading SAHRD reports in the SA press. Of course, the widespread ignorance of Jewish/ Arab relations over the last 100yrs was quite staggering and prevented the delegates from putting the conflict into any meaningful context. Lets faced it Jonathan, hardly any of The SAHRD crew had a clue about the history of the conflict. Their ignorance was actually embarrassing, a bit like Sarah Palin when answering foreign affairs questions.

You could take a group of nursey school children next time and get an equally "informed" response.. how about the South African Kindergarten Delegation (SAKD).

David Hersch

Mike Berger's correspondence with Doron Isaacs of the SAHRD - a continuing revelation of arrogance, disrespect and rudeness.

How not to react when you find yourself in a corner.

I would like to recommend you read this correspondence on Mike Berger's blog at:

http://froggyfarm.blogspot.com/

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Re Question 4 for Doron.
Mike writes that Doron "lobbied for Nadine Gordimer to boycott the international writer’s festival held in Israel earlier this year."

Mike, it is interesting that Doron can lobby for Gordimer to stay away, and get involved with the usual anti-zionist suspects, but at the same time he assures us that he knows "little about Ronnie Kasrils’ politics".

Doron presents himself as a naive ingenue when asked to comment on Ronno Einstein's politics. But has Doronno taken over his mentor's mantle? As Ronno starts to retire from the anti-zionist fray, a fresh faced protegee has taken over. Is it purely coincidental that their names are similar? Some spiritual gurus argue that nothing happens by chance. Scary stuff indeed re Ronno and Doronno.

(Doronno for the record, Ronno Einstein labelled me a "dictator" at Wits because I tried to ask him a follow up question after his 'Beyond Victimhood' lecture. It is a moniker that I have since worn with pride. I suggest that you take your new "Doronno" moniker in the same way.)

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

To be fair with Doronno, although he has had the chutzpah to auto delete my emails, he has at least pitched up on Supernatural and entered into a debate.

Even if his answers to the questions do not gain top grades we must take account that we are living in South Africa and we shouldn't mark him too harshly.

The Supernatural syllabus is quite tough and more rigorous than the Outcome Based Education (OBE) which the ANC says it is sticking to.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

In correspondence with Mike Berger, Doronno writes:

" I have met Ronnie Kasrils exactly once in my life, seven years ago, in December 2001, when I chaired a debate he had with Hagai Segal and Joel Pollak."

This is really weird. Another bizarre coincidence. I have also only met Ronno Einstein once.

Its a funny thing about Ronno. You only need to meet him once. Once you have, then you know all that you need to know. I wonder whether Doronno had the same experience?

But what amazes me about Doronno is that he actually chaired a debate starring Ronno and he still doesn't know about his anti-zionist politics.

Ok.. I can, if push comes to shove, kind of believe (with my fingers crossed) that Doronno doesn't read the M&G and has never come across Ronno's weekly column. But to actually chair a debate and not to listen to a word that Ronno was saying.. well, that really takes some doing!

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR


Subject: THE SAHRC
Date: 04 December 2008 4:29:00 PM
To: rhoda

Dear Rhoda Kadalie,

I read your article in today's Business Day about The SAHRC. Your voice is real fresh air in a very stale and odorous "PC/ANC/SAHRC/FXI/MRN/M&G" establishment. In fact your voice is just about the only fresh air!

http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/opinion.aspx?ID=BD4A898224

As you may know from my emails and blogging, I am also very concerned about their (in)activities which do not appear to be quite kosher (pork and prawns would be far more accurate.)

My daughter, who is 15yrs , has alerted me to the following HARD TALK interview with Jody Kollapen (SAHRC). Although she is not all that interested in politics, (she prefers fashion designers), she could not believe her ears. She was horrified/ outraged ( and btw I have never spoken to her about the SAHRC) by the nonsense that Kollapen spouted. She thinks he must be a a Zuman.

Of course, Kollapen was also a member of THE SAHRD which just about says it all. Interesting how this place works.. it would make an interesting Phd.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/hardtalk/7762772.stm

viva
blacklisted

Shmuel ben David

I understand that Dorron Isaacs is now a member of the ANC, maybe the SACP and works for the ANC in Equal Education, whatever that may be, and which also leads one to ask what Israeli affairs have to do with this and how does he find the time or is the job a cover to allow and encourage his nefarious activities. Further more, who in the ANC was and is his boss? He has easy access to Madlala-Routledge (Now Deputy Speaker in Parliament), Barbara Hogan (New Minister of Health) and many other. Both these ladies were members of his ill-starred "delegation" that he took on a freebie to Israel. Didn't the funding mostly if not completely come from the very person who funds Kasrils' "Not in my name" group? Makes one think and question, doesn't it?

In addition to Madlala-Routledge and Hogan, Isaacs had easy access to the perfidious Dennis Davis, which I assume he had via the Jewish community in Cape Town. He also had easy access to Judge Cameron, Geoff Budlender and many others that he used to wrap a veneer of "respectability" around his questionable "delegation".

So now we are asked to believe that he doesn't know Kasrils. Me thinks Isaacs doth protest too much and prefers to keep his relationship with Kasrils quiet and secret for obvious reasons. Please! He has been tootling around the ANC for far too long. Furthermore, as head of Habonim at the time when he chaired the debate that he refers to above, who other than him would have invited Kasrils and liased and organised it?

No, I am afraid Isaacs is not as naive and innocent as he pretends and yes, I suspect he will be the natural heir to Kasrils and is being groomed for the role, but unlike Kasrils, comes from within the Jewish community and is unintelligently, if not stupidly, aided and abetted by certain members of the Board of Deputies and Limmud.

One final thing to the BLACKLISTED DICTATOR, I admire your passion and spirit and your willingness to take the likes of Isaacs on and give back as good as you can. However, the nicknames will only confuse your readers and I would therefore advise you not to use them. It devalues every good thing you do and loses the reader.

Steve

Shmuel, must agree with you about the Dictator, although I have become very fond of his nicknames.

His spirit and passion is unbounded. His walk matches his talk (he attended an anti-SABC demonstration with a T-Shirt that said "Sack Snuki").

Imagine his contribution if he were a committed Zionist. (He denies being a Zionist, although I would still include him on a SAZionistsHRD).

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