Over the last few months we have been hosting an online debate between Joel Pollak and Doron Isaacs about the South African Human Rights Delegation’s controversial trip to Israel and the Palestinian territories. Doron was an organizer of the tour and Joel, a leading Zionist thinker and writer within the South African Jewish community, has been a major critic.
As part of this debate we promised readers of this blog the opportunity to pose some tough questions to both Joel and Doron about the mission and their views of the Arab-Israeli conflict. We all agreed to limit questions to 7 each. Thus Steve and I have done our best to choose questions that are not repetitive and go to the heart of the debate. We have also tried to get as much coverage of the issues as possible. Ensuring some level of interaction in this debate with our readers was very important to us and I think the questions and their answers make for a fascinating conclusion to what has been a very fierce debate. I am sure readers will continue to debate and analyze the responses at length in the comments section. I hope non regular commentors, who share different opinions, will also chip in.
Finally I would like to thank both Doron and Joel for taking part in this extremely time consuming and intellectually strenuous exercise. Both are busy people but have put in considerable effort and thought into their responses. They deserve much praise for their level of commitment to open debate within the South African Jewish community.
We hope this is not a once off event but perhaps may serve as a catalyst for more of this sort of thing in the future. There are some who have criticized us for providing Doron with a platform within the community to air what they see as his unacceptable views. This is the type of worldview that this blog is established to fight against. We have devoted many hours and ink to advocating for a balanced playing field for the Israeli-Arab conflict to be discussed in the South African media. Likewise we have tried to facilitate a balanced playing field for the Israeli-Arab conflict to be discussed in the South African Jewish community as well. Grappling with and debating complex, and at times, uncomfortable issues in a fair forum is in the long run surely the best way to strengthen South African Jewry.
Below are the questions and answers. Due to the length of this conclusion to the debate, we will post the questions and answers over a series of 3 posts. The final entry to this debate will appear before the end of this week. We asked Joel and Doron to limit each answer to 300 words but decided to tolerate excesses.
Question 1 for Joel
Please elaborate on your plan for awarding rights to Jews in the West Bank. Surely this cannot occur when the resources are so disproportionately allocated and in a situation where the settlements are Jew only areas. I could live with your proposal under certain conditions, for example 1 - Privately owned land that has been expropriated is returned 2 - Jews submit to Palestinian law - whatever they may be (assuming they protect minorities) 3 - Jews can then go live in Palestinian villages in the similar conditions that the Palestinians must live in Joel, what are your conditions? Please take into account an equitable distribution of resources within the occupied territories. The settlements are getting better access to water and electricity. If there is no land swap but rather the Jews live there as residents of Palestine (which I support) how then do we justify these Jewish blocs continuing to appear as if they are in Israel in terms of resources when they are really in Palestine. - Lynda |
I’ll agree with you that private land that has been expropriated should be returned—with the exception of land that is being temporarily used for legitimate security reasons. So, for example, I would agree that private Palestinian land that has been used by Israeli settlements should be returned, but I believe that the use of private Palestinian land for the Israeli security barrier is legitimate and restitution would have to wait until such time as Palestinians snipers stop trying to shoot Israeli civilians and Palestinian suicide bombers stop trying to infiltrate Israeli cities. I also agree that Jews living in a future Palestinian state should be subject to Palestinian laws, just like any other citizen. I am puzzled, however, by your suggestion that Jews should “go live in Palestinian villages in the similar conditions that the Palestinians must live in.” I agree that Jews should be allowed to live in Palestinian towns if they wish. But I don’t think that Jews who become Palestinian citizens in the West Bank should be forced to leave their current communities (if that is indeed what you are suggesting), nor do I think they should be forced to accept any particular standard of living as the price of citizenship. You seem to have accepted certain propagandist arguments about the distribution of water and other resources in the West Bank. Israel is not stealing Palestinian water, and in fact pumps water from Israeli sources into Palestinian communities ( See http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_water.php). Water is also one of the only areas in which Israeli-Palestinian cooperation has continued in spite of the intifada. Moreover, Israel supplies Palestinian communities with electricity and other necessities. I would expect this sort of cooperation to continue under any future peace agreement.
Joel
Question 1 for Doron
While you might believe the Palestinians you met with believed in non-violence, they still voted for HAMAS, whose platform calls for the destruction of Israel. Saying that this is just rhetoric or purely for economic reasons is as outrageous as saying that in 1933 the Germans ignored the anti-Semitism expressed by the Nazi party for which they voted en-masse. You deride Joel for supporting John McCain, but imagine if he allied with the AWB or Ku Klux Klan? Wouldn’t this discredit him entirely? Well the Palestinians have voted for genocidal, theocratic maniacs. Yet somehow, this has not discredited them. My question Doron is, what do you believe would be the ideal “human rights based” approach to HAMAS’s success at the polls? - Shaun |
Dear Shaun,
I agree it is outrageous to explain away Hamas propaganda. Therefore I have never done so. Hamas must be challenged on their antisemitism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, murderous attacks on Israelis, equating of Israelis with Nazis, diminishing of the Nazi Holocaust, and the conspiracy theories in their Charter.
But in deciding what an appropriate political response should be, Hamas’ desires – even on the worst reading thereof – must be weighed against what they are capable of achieving; i.e. the balance of forces. The violence Hamas can muster is capable of killing a number of innocent Israeli civilians – in 2002, by far the bloodiest year, the death toll was 141 – and thereby terrorising the entire Israeli population[1]. Every life should be protected, fully, and in doing that it is crucial that we understand that Hamas lacks totally the capacity to mount a violent campaign that would pose an existential problem for Israel. The existential danger, as Ehud Olmert has lately pointed out, lies rather in a continuation of the status quo[2].
Notwithstanding Hamas’ irrationality, driven by its religious fundamentalism and bigotry – fostered surely by the suffocating conditions of the Occupation – the organisation is not incapable of rationale self-interested behaviour. Ultimately, Hamas can offer its followers little unless it recognises the fact of Israel. The weakness of one’s political opponent offers the possibility that it may reform, if one acts strategically. Given this, and Israel’s unquestionable superiority, it would be well-advised to engage Hamas in negotiations.
This, of course, has been happening behind the scenes for some time. The Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture published a leaked document from Israeli-Hamas negotiations which took place in Europe last year. Its key provisions are a five-year mutual Armistice/Hudna whereby Israel will withdraw to an agreed temporary line, both sides will desist from any attacks, there will be a freeze on settlement-building, and a lift on Palestinian travel restrictions within and between the West Bank and Gaza. During this time a joint economic zone will be established[3]. The document’s status is unclear.
Publicly too, there have been glimmers of reform. The recent reaction to the Arab Peace Initiative (known as the Saudi Plan) was interesting. This plan, first adopted at the Beirut Summit in 2002 and again endorsed at the Riyadh Summit in 2007, is a proposed solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict as a whole, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular. The initiative obtained the unanimous consent of all members of the Arab League. It is premised on Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories, the establishment of a Palestinian state, and a “just solution” to the refugee problem. In exchange the Arab countries would “consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel” and “establish normal relations with Israel”. Joel apparently opposes this plan[4]. I think it should be vigorously pursued.
Anyway, on the day of Riyadh Summit, Ismail Abu Shanab (Hamas’ spokesperson and a member of the five-person executive committee of Hamas) sat for a two-hour interview with the San Francisco Chronicle. He said that his organisation would accept the initiative: “That would be satisfactory for all Palestinian military groups to stop and build our state, to be busy in our own affairs, and have good neighborhood with Israelis.” He also said Hamas will “cease all military activities”. Asked if he was speaking for the entire Hamas organisation, Shanab said, “Yes”. He also, for all practical purposes, gives up the wholesale return of refugees[5].
“There has been generation after generation (of war). Now there is a generation who needs to live in peace, and not worry about their safety,” said Shanab. “So it is a generation that wants to practice living in peace and postpone historical issues. We speak of historical Palestine, and practical reality[6].”
It may well be that this is pure spin, and that nothing good ever comes of it. Hamas’ public utterances are inconsistent, and I am not naïve about the insincerity of political spokespeople[7]. But because Hamas is so weak relative to Israel these cracks might be opened wider by careful engagement.
Even this week there was a de facto negotiation between Israel and Hamas in regard to opening up the Gaza crossing in exchange for a ceasefire[8].
Lastly, on a slightly different note: You think the support for Hamas discredits the Palestinian population – whose situation I sympathise with. You see this as a greater indictment than the active endorsement Joel gave to John McCain and Sarah Palin. But you're not comparing apples with apples. I'm saying Joel's support for McCain weakens his claim to being a person who cares about human rights. You seem to be suggesting that Palestinian support for Hamas is a legitimate reason to deprive them of basic human rights. I am not interested in depriving Joel of his human rights – I just want to point out that the fact that Joel campaigned for these people contradicts his rhetorical commitment to human rights.
Doron
Question 2 for Joel
The focus of your argument in all three postings is an explanation of various problematic issues in Palestinian society - human rights abuses, violence, non-acceptance of an Israeli minority. But what is striking is that you have yet to put forward a direct opinion on the occupation of Palestinian land and people by Israel. My impression from your entries is that you support such a situation and justify it in terms of the bad behaviour of Palestinians. Is this true? - Sean Wasserman |
No. I believe the occupation must end. In terms of international law, the occupation is legitimate—both in terms of its origin (response to attacks against Israel by neighboring states), and in terms of the continued belligerence of anti-Israel forces operating within the territories in defiance of a peace process between the recognized representatives of both sides. However, there are aspects of the occupation that are morally reprehensible, legally questionable and politically destructive. Despite the gains made by Palestinians under occupation from 1967 to 1987—rapid economic growth, the introduction of tertiary education, and so on—it has not been a “benign” experience for Palestinians and has eroded both security and the rule of law in Israel as well.
Joel
Question 2 for Doron
Do you agree with Mondli's Makhanya’s use of the word "evil" and Nozizwe Madlala Routlegde’s “worse than Apartheid” description of Israel? Do you believe this has helped the SAHRD gain credibility with Jews who do not seek Israel's destruction? " If no, then will you publicly condemn their comments? - Anthony Posner |
Dear Anthony,
Makhanya and Madlala-Routledge were referring to the Occupied West Bank.
Their words are not words or phrases I have used. I think facts and detailed descriptions are the best method of communication, given the masses of cheap slogans and misinformation on offer.
I think those comments probably upset and alienated quite a number of Jewish people.
I also know that they generated an enormous amount of debate, some of which was positive.
I don’t think that anybody, especially not those who have made sacrifices for democracy and human rights, should be reduced to a sound bite. Both Makhanya and Madlala-Routledge have reflected at length[9].
Their comments can be disagreed with, but I will not condemn them. They were harsh, perhaps unfairly so, but do not contain an ounce of prejudice.
Doron
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Q&As 3 and 4 will be posted on Tuesday and the final 3 will be posted on Thursday
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Notes:
[1] It is worth noting that 150 people are murdered every three days in South Africa. See SAPS ‘Crime Statistics – Summary’ Table 1 pg 6 at http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2008/docs/introduction2008.pdf.
[2] Haaretz ‘Olmert: To honor Rabin, Israel must cede land’ at http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1036034.html (In the speech Olmert said “If God forbid, we procrastinate, we could lose support for a two-state solution… The decision must be taken now, without hesitation, before ... the narrow window of opportunity to plant [that] solution in the consciousness of our people and the nations of the world vanishes in front of our eyes.” He made similar comments to the Knesset, see http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1036083.html.)
[3] Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture (Vol. 13 No. 4, 2007) p 121-123.
[4] Joel Pollak ‘Obama backs Saudi peace plan’ 16 November 2008 at http://guidetotheperplexed.blogspot.com/.
[5] Robert Plotkin ‘Hamas would accept Saudi peace plan, spokesman says: Group would stop attacks on Israelis if occupation ends’ San Francisco Chronicle, Sunday, April 28, 2002, available at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/04/28/MN222422.DTL; See also Michelle K. Esposito ‘Quarterly Update on Conflict and Diplomacy’ Journal of Palestine Studies XXXI No. 4, (Summer 2002), pp 139 – 167, available at http://www.jstor.org/pss/3247324.
[6] Ibid. Without renouncing their horrendous Charter and their rejection of Israel’s existence, the key device that Hamas uses, to give themselves room for reasonable politics, is the idea of “postponing historical issues”. This appears to be a way of relinquishing their dreams for all practical purposes, and saving a bit of face.
[7] Steven Erlanger ‘Hamas Leader Sees No Change Toward Israelis’ January 29, 2006 New York Times at http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/international/middleeast/29hamasx.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1.
[8] Roni Sofer ‘Barak: We'll open Gaza crossings if Hamas holds its fire’ 11.23.08 Ynet.com at http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3627487,00.html
[9] Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge ‘A million tiny ripples of hope’ ANC Today Volume 8, No. 35 • 5—11 September 2008 at http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/anctoday/2008/at35.htm; Mondli Makhanya ‘We can try to help as Palestinians and Israelis begin to build a new bridge’ The Sunday Times Jul 13, 2008 at http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/Insight/Article.aspx?id=800690; Mondli Makhanya ‘The never-ending face-off’ The Sunday Times Jul 27, 2008 at http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/Insight/Article.aspx?id=809572
Update
The story so far
- Part 1 - Doron Isaacs instalment 1
- Part 2 - Joel Pollak instalment 1
- Part 3 - Doron Isaacs instalment 2
- Part 4 - Joel Pollak instalment 2
- Part 5 - Doron Isaacs Closing
- Part 6 - Joel Pollak Closing
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