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« Crossing Swords Part 6- Pollak's Closing entry | Main | The Star issues an apology for Jenin lie »

October 22, 2008

Comments

The Homo Economicus

This blog represents a great space for promoting debate and dialog, and I truly congratulate the webmasters about it.

Lynda

Homo Economicus, I agree. But don't try to actually debate with some of the folks that hang out in the comments sections.

Mike,
I repeat my previous question. The SAJBD seems to be engaging with Motlanthe and the state - not necessarily the ANC. There is nothing wrong with that is there?

They can't stop engaging with the state because Terror is so unhappy. We need good relations with the state.

Why must we be so worried about offending Terror and Shilowa? We never worry about offending Buthelezi or Leon/Zille.

As was previously said in the last item, Zev is doing a good job, its a tough job and thankless job, but keep it up.

I too think Zev is on the correct path.

Furthermore, I think that its good for the community to know that Motlanthe is a genial man and accepted an invite to Zev's Shabbos dinner table. Shows that he will have a soft spot for the Jewish community and it calms fears.

The board is not a human rights movement. They exists to look after th Jewish community. From simple things like petitioning universities about exams held on yontivs to broad political engagement as you call it.

We shouldnt worry so much about trampling on terror's toes!

Gary

So, Lynda, you seem to be a loyal footsoldier of the Zuma/Motlanthe ANC/SACP.

Religious Fundamentalist 1

"As was previously said in the last item, Zev is doing a good job, its a tough job and thankless job, but keep it up."

Great Lynda, we agree. We have more in common than you think.

Mike

Lynda, these days it’s very hard to tell where the state starts and the ANC ends. That’s part of the problem of one party dominated democracies. I think the SAJBD has over the years behaved disgustingly toward the DA and the IFP. In particular I am ashamed of the way Tony Leon was treated. But this time the SAJBD’s bias towards the ‘ruling party’ is more than just unjust. Lekota et al may actually have real power. That’s the difference this time. What if they get say 35% of the vote? They may be able to form a coalition government that excludes the Zuma camp. Then where does the community stand?
I should add I am no Lekota fan. I won’t be voting for him or his new party. But that’s not really my point. If your policy is to engage then you must be seen to engage equally with everyone.
Lynda one Shabbas dinner is not going to change the fundamental ideological positions of the Zuma/Malema/ Motlanthe camp. Many in that camp are seriously anti Israel. Zuma himself has made some really shocking comments. So don’t kid yourselves about an easy ride for SA Jewry under these guys.
Finally in a real democracy I don’t know if you need an organization to look after Jewish interests in the way you articulate it. But we can debate that point…

Daniel

There is a concept in liberal democracies called Civil Society. The Board, supposedly representatives of a minority in SA, should be part of this Civil Society, and make efforts to promote VALUES in South Africa like strengthening democracy and fighting for the poor. Sure, promoting the rights of Jews is one aspect of this, because as the sage Hillel taught us, “If I am not for me, who will be?” I commend the Board on its successful efforts in this regard.

But that is not the whole story, and Hillel continues, “If I am only for myself, what am I?” The Board, when criticized for not engaging in the broader issued in South Africa, is quick to point out (and rightly so) that it has made serious efforts in the past, including helping with the 2000 Mozambique floods, the 2004 Tsunami relief effort, and the most current xenophobia crisis. In these cases, the Board acted as part of Civil Society, and uses these efforts to portray the image that they are not ONLY concerned about Jewish interests. BUT, when it is convenient for the Board to step back, hide its face, and PRETEND that it is not part of this Civil Society, that it exists solely for the interests of the Jewish community, as Lynda in an above post argues, then the Board takes a step back and uses this as an excuse, claiming that they are nothing but a Jewish lobbying organization. So which is it? I would like to know what the Board does, since it supposedly represents me. Does it exist for the Jews and for them alone? Or is it part of Civil Society? It cannot just stick with the answer that suits them today. Which one is it?

Daniel

Also, it is high time for the Board to recognize that what it does is political. If it chooses to communicate to the community and to the public that its Chairman had shabbas dinner with a certain politician at an opportune time, this is political. If it leaves out the fact that it has relations with other politicians, from within the ANC, and from other parties, this is a political decision, one of ommision. If the Board is a lobbying organization, and maintains relationships with a broad range of political actors, why is the community not told about this straight out? Why does someone have to step up and criticize the Board's political moves for it to finally reveal that it has relations with many political actors. They should say so from the start.

Perhaps the Board may consider increasing the transparency of its actions, since only a select few in the community are privy to what they do and with whom they do it. Perhaps transparency would help the Board portray a message of neutrality. But advertizing "good" political behavior with the "right" people at "opportune" times, like mentioning a three-years-ago dinner with a politician who is now in favor, IS POLITICAL! The Board cannot remain neutral simply by saying that it does. Its actions speak louder than its words, and in this case, I think that the political content of Mr. Krengel's message to the community in his column, as Mike pointed out, was clear.

Gary

I much prefer Lekota party to the Zuma/Motlanthe ANC because th enw party is free of the shackals of the evil SACP and COSATU whcih are responsible for all the most vile ideas in the ANC.
I hate the SACP and COSATU with a pure hatred.

Hannah Jaffe

Oh come, come, come! Krengel has been hugely motivated by self-interest and the Board and its provincial affiliates haven't exactly covered themselves on glory. Please see the discussions on their reactions to the South African Human Rights Delegation (meaning Palestinain Support Group) elsewhere on this blog.

We have had far better and wiser national leaders and Board members in the past who put the interests of the South African Jewish Community and Israel first. Let us hope we can be blessed with such people again.

Roger  Harry David

One of the questions is, how relevant is the Jewish Board of Deputies? Its logical to have such a body, but the current leadership, if that is what you can call them, is NOT up to the task. Image projection articles in the South African Jewish Report does not substance make.

A thorough analysis of the Board and its members in all provinces is urgently need and so are national and local elections, even if they are within a constitutional term.

A call such as this should make the current members ask why is this expressed and look at the criticisms aimed at them and do something about it. Will they? No way!

Sandra Benash

I understand that members of the Board of Deputies around the country have been passed this blog's address to look at it. I sincerely hope they do and get the message that their constituency, which they take for granted and generally ignore, are extremely unhappy with them. Every one of them!

The Board is far to ingratiating towards the government and in the insightful words of Tony Leon, who has said it on many occassions and they know about it, "the Board has never met a government it did not like".

Let us hope substantial people are attracted to serve on the Board, and for the matter on the SAZF and all their provincial councils. People who put community and Israel above self and ego.

My advice to the Board is to do some honest and deep meaningful introspection. You are actually obliged to do so, but whether you will is not assured.

Desmond Bach

How is it that Dennis Davis is still a member of the Cape Board and hasn't been asked to resign when he put a newly acquired loyalty to the "human rights delegation" above his loyalty to the Board, which he has chaired and sat on for years?

I understand that Davis also met without permission from the Board with the Palestinian terrorist, Leila Khalid, when she visited South Africa three years ago. One has to question his judgement and common sense and the Board's reaction to him and its lack of censuring him.

Jonathan C

Timidity and pernicious lack of conviction by the Board of Deputies and SAZF/WPZC may parade as enlightenment. Yet super-circumspection constitutes the perfect cop-out for gutless "leaders" and may trigger dangerous dynamics. It invites trouble rather than averts it.

Our struggle for survival in Israel and in South Africa doesn't hinge on concessions and acceptance of Doron Isaacs and his group. Our so-called leaders willfully prefer to misidentify it and therefore they will not stay under control and as a result, nothing should shock us.

Who will stand up and be counted?

Mike

Sandra,do you know in what context that was done? Is the SAJBD promoting or complaining about us?

Bigben

Hi mike

How far do you think we should push this neutrality thing? If the president issues us with a Rosh hashana card should we also reject that because we might be seen to be partisan?

Whether we like the procedure or not there is no legal problem with the way the goverment is currently constituted, issues of party and state aside. Therefore it would be problematic for the SAJBD to see the Mothalte and Co as illegitimate and not deal with them.

What is interesting about the current make up of the government is how many of the people have had some good experience of Jews in the past, eg Jesse Durate. I would argue that with Vavi and Co on the their way in, and Rono Einstein and Co now out the way, that perhaps the board should make hay while the sun shines.

Steve

Bigben, tell us more about Duarte...you say she has had good relations with Jews?

Mike

Bigben,I do believe the SAJBD has to engage with the government. My point was how they portray that engagement. I am not questioning the legality of Mothalte's appointment. But I dont believe it represents democracy at its finest! These are very uncertain times politically. And the leadership of this community would be wise to be cautious. Now is not the time for one sided statements and reports of meetings by the head of the SAJBD. If they meeting Mothalte fine but keep it low key.

I am surprised u say that bigben, I was under the impression that the new anc cap is more anti-israel than the previous bunch.

Zvika

Dear Mike

Sandra has gone on a business trip overseas. I have passed on your request and she has asked me to fax you the document referred to issued by the Board of Deputies. Please supply a Fax number so I can send you a copy.

Steve

Hi Zvika,
Thanks, I think its important for us to see this. Please could you send me an email and I will respond with the fax number. I prefer not to post the fax number here.

Email is [email protected]

Thanks

Bigben

Hi Mike

Unfortunately I didnt get a chance to read the orginal above board so it is difficult for me to say. If they were trumpeting how much they support the zumarist camp then perhaps okay, a shabbos dinner two years ago is hardly a giant endorsement. Besides Zuma has himself has talked to everyone in country from including groups like Afrforum I dont see why us talking should be seen as any problem. Even if Lekota comes into power with coalition it would need the support of groups that closer to the Jews, it would be a complete new kind of politics.

On the current ANC's approach to Israel I would say that it is not in the broad sense that they have changed tac. In fact they were elected in the with same group of Polokwane resolutions that were wholly anti-israel. Unfortunately I think we going to have to accept that this issue may be the only thing the two camps agree on because anti-israelism pervades the entire organisation. At an individual level however it seems that virtually every public anti-israel individual left with Mbeki. Both Pahads, Ronno Eistein and Willie Madisha as obvious beginners. But you may recall that earlier this year that Lekota was a signatory to that ad in the citizen as was Kader Asmal (I think). I dont know what the particular views are of the current administration but seems to be they are more internal and Africa focused not internationalist like Mbeki. It just seems to me that perhaps it is better to have a cabinet where bashing israel is not the major part time hobby of many of its individuals. It is not a massive difference but it is some. Not everyone is gone from the set up but it is weakened, we will have to see if things get worse or better with the introduction of the left.

Bigben

Hi Mike

Unfortunately I didnt get a chance to read the orginal above board so it is difficult for me to say. If they were trumpeting how much they support the zumarist camp then perhaps okay, a shabbos dinner two years ago is hardly a giant endorsement. Besides Zuma has himself has talked to everyone in country from including groups like Afrforum I dont see why us talking should be seen as any problem. Even if Lekota comes into power with coalition it would need the support of groups that closer to the Jews, it would be a complete new kind of politics.

On the current ANC's approach to Israel I would say that it is not in the broad sense that they have changed tac. In fact they were elected in the with same group of Polokwane resolutions that were wholly anti-israel. Unfortunately I think we going to have to accept that this issue may be the only thing the two camps agree on because anti-israelism pervades the entire organisation. At an individual level however it seems that virtually every public anti-israel individual left with Mbeki. Both Pahads, Ronno Eistein and Willie Madisha as obvious beginners. But you may recall that earlier this year that Lekota was a signatory to that ad in the citizen as was Kader Asmal (I think). I dont know what the particular views are of the current administration but seems to be they are more internal and Africa focused not internationalist like Mbeki. It just seems to me that perhaps it is better to have a cabinet where bashing israel is not the major part time hobby of many of its individuals. It is not a massive difference but it is some. Not everyone is gone from the set up but it is weakened, we will have to see if things get worse or better with the introduction of the left.

Bigben

HI Steve

You should have a look at that Mandela @ 90 publication that was put out earlier this year. After Mandelas hers is the name that is the most frequently mentioned.

Moshe

Before we begin thinking that the new ANC leadership is pro-Israel or more pro-Israel than the last one, we must read the Polokwene resolutions. Especially this one that I'm pasting below called On Palestine. This is the resolution of the new ANC leadership. They are all anti-Israel. And with the SACP and Cosatu having more power in the ANC now, it will become even more anti-Israel.


ON PALESTINE

Noting:

66. The 60th Anniversary of the Palestinian catastrophe, known as the Nakba, which resulted in the dispossession of Palestinian lands and their birthright through a systematic policy of colonial expansion, ethnic cleansing and military occupation of the most brutal kind, which as South Africans we readily recognise from our own experience of apartheid.
67. Our support for the numerous United Nations (UN) resolutions as well as submissions of our government to the International Court of Justice which recognised the illegality of the Israel occupation, the illegal settlements, the building of the apartheid wall, the system of road blocks, seizure of land, detentions without trial, extra-judicial killings and the imprisonment of over 10,000 Palestinians including women and children;
68. That given our own experience in our liberation struggle, we South Africans know the force of an international solidarity campaign in bringing to bear on an oppressive regime to force it into real negotiations and a just solution.

Resolves:
69. To intensify our solidarity efforts supporting a just solution, including the strengthening of a sovereign, independent Palestinian state, which will help to bring peace to the region and an end to the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis.
70. To become a leading part of the world-wide movement, which includes South African civil society, supporting the struggle and campaigns led by the Palestinian people.
71. To continue to support the efforts by our government to encourage an inclusive peaceful process of a negotiated settlement between the concerned parties.
72. To lead efforts to strengthen and coordinate a broad-based Palestinian Solidarity movement.
73. To also support the ANC efforts in engaging with all parties in Israel and Palestine to find an amicable resolution towards the settlement of the Palestinian question and peace in the Middle East.

Moshe

ON PALESTINE

Noting:

66. The 60th Anniversary of the Palestinian catastrophe, known as the Nakba, which resulted in the dispossession of Palestinian lands and their birthright through a systematic policy of colonial expansion, ethnic cleansing and military occupation of the most brutal kind, which as South Africans we readily recognise from our own experience of apartheid.
67. Our support for the numerous United Nations (UN) resolutions as well as submissions of our government to the International Court of Justice which recognised the illegality of the Israel occupation, the illegal settlements, the building of the apartheid wall, the system of road blocks, seizure of land, detentions without trial, extra-judicial killings and the imprisonment of over 10,000 Palestinians including women and children;
68. That given our own experience in our liberation struggle, we South Africans know the force of an international solidarity campaign in bringing to bear on an oppressive regime to force it into real negotiations and a just solution.

Resolves:
69. To intensify our solidarity efforts supporting a just solution, including the strengthening of a sovereign, independent Palestinian state, which will help to bring peace to the region and an end to the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis.
70. To become a leading part of the world-wide movement, which includes South African civil society, supporting the struggle and campaigns led by the Palestinian people.
71. To continue to support the efforts by our government to encourage an inclusive peaceful process of a negotiated settlement between the concerned parties.
72. To lead efforts to strengthen and coordinate a broad-based Palestinian Solidarity movement.
73. To also support the ANC efforts in engaging with all parties in Israel and Palestine to find an amicable resolution towards the settlement of the Palestinian question and peace in the Middle East.

Shmuel ben David

This entry yesterday, 25 November 2008, in the Cape Argus speaks volumes for the stupid sycophantic approach of the SAJBD to government and their paranoid attempts to always appear to please them. Its time we had real men at the helm of the Board of Deputies and SAZF and for the cringing Krengels to step aside.

It also speaks volumes for not standing up to Doron Isaacs, his personal ambition and his fellow Zionophobes.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?art_id=vn20081125113714574C177308&set_id=1&click_id=13&sf=

SA president's name on anti-Israel petition
By Murray Williams

The Presidency and the Jewish Board of Deputies have expressed dismay at
the appearance of President Kgalema Motlanthe's name on an advertisement
decrying alleged "apartheid-style" brutality meted out by the Israeli
government.

The advertisement, presented in the form of a petition, was first
published in advance of the state of Israel's 60th birthday in May.

It was also signed by dozens of prominent South Africans in protest
against Israel's alleged "colonial oppression" of Palestinians and the
incarceration, banishment, massacre and torture of political dissidents.

But the advertisement appeared in the South African press again this week
- this time including Motlanthe's name, in his capacity as "the President
of the RSA", raising immediate concerns about South Africa's relations
with Israel.

Zev Krengel, national chairman of the Jewish Board of Deputies, told the
Cape Argus yesterday that if this had been done with Mothlanthe's consent
then it could fundamentally affect South Africa's future capacity to
mediate in the protracted Middle East crisis.

"Was it in his private capacity or as president? In both possible cases,
it is quite disturbing for the Jewish community.

"First, the ANC's policy towards Israel has always been a two-state
solution, finding a peaceful resolution" - reference to the argument in
favour of an independent Palestinian state co-existing alongside Israel.

"Our biggest concern is that adverts like this just harden both sides and
give less credibility to South Africa being able to play any part in
ending that conflict."

Krengel said that if Motlanthe had signed the petition as president, then
it would have to be interpreted as the government's formal position, which
would go against South Africa's preferred strategy of quiet diplomacy, as
exercised towards the Zimbabwean crisis for the past five years.

Krengel's concerns were, however, immediately allayed by Presidency
spokesperson Thabo Masebe.

"He signed it in his personal capacity long before he became president - I
don't know why this has been published now," he told the Cape Argus.

"There is also no mention of the government. He would not as president
have put his name there - he is not representing the people of the
country."

Masebe said "presidents don't sign petitions" and that Motlanthe would
have communicated any government view through official intergovernmental
channels, had he wanted to or needed to.

ANC spokesperson Carl Niehaus told the Cape Argus that he knew nothing of
the latest publication of the petition, nor whether Motlanthe had
originally signed the document in his personal capacity, or as deputy
president of the ANC, his formal title back in May.

Israel's ambassador to South Africa, Ilan Baruch, was on Monday night also
attempting to gain clarity on the matter.

The most recently published petition still carries the names of numerous
senior ANC leaders and MPs, current members of Motlanthe's Cabinet such as
Pallo Jordan and Derek Hanekom, former Cabinet ministers from the Mbeki
government, numerous academics, heads of NGOs and other public figures -
as well as COPE leader Mosiuoa Lekota.

It is not clear when the individuals put their names to the petition, or
in what capacity.

Nor is it clear who among them continues to support the demand for Israel
to allow Palestinian refugees to "return home" to Israel and the
denouncement of the Israeli government's alleged treatment of
Palestinians.

This article was originally published on page 1 of The Cape Argus on
November 25, 2008


Published on the Web by IOL on 2008-11-25 11:37:00

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MOSCOW - 1000s of seniors converged inside Moscow for Wednesday with the minute huge antigovernment demo in the thirty day period,コーチ beginning victory meant for activists battling so that you can forge a good leaked of energy to a politics trigger in a position to complex Vladimir VERSUS. Putin’s potential. The best these sort of trial,coach a couple of weeks backwards, has been unprecedented with regard to Mr. Putin’s regulation, together with insurance carrier points Saturday’s turnout has been lower - in particular, cold months getaways plus the oncoming with poisonous ice cold.
In lieu, individuals put every day into a canyon brought to life by wide govt complexes, and also the criminal court fit this masses located at 30, 000, greater than many people said regarding Dec. 10. Organizers explained it was closer to 120, 000. Time afterward, as the protesters distributed, many chanted, bit by bit: “We happens for a second time! All of us occurs repeatedly! ”
Should the movement maintains the country's severeness, it will adjust all the length of that presidential political election within Mar, when Mr. Putin designs to extend his / her grow as being the country’s predominant physique to a later 18 numerous years. Opposition voters ended up being furious over the run from this month’s parliamentary election, and will be roused just as before by simply Mr. Putin’s campaigning. Even so, building momentum can be described as large concern, and the initial giddy feeling has already hard inside a specific thing more severe.
The particular wrongdoing novelist Boris Akunin, peering out and about thru wire-rimmed eyeglasses like he or she hammered out the actual audience by a phase, stated demonstrators should certainly prepare his or her self on a long term.
“We may have a challenging yr, ” Mr. Akunin said. “But will probably be a useful month. It's going to our 365 days. ”
The actual protests have got rattled that Kremlin, which includes definitely not met prevalent politics reluctance for one period. Mr. Putin in the beginning sneered inside the demonstrators, thinking days following the very first rally of the fact that white colored lace they already have adopted as a token resembled sagging condoms, and they participated only when they ended up being settled just by foreign providers wanting to undermine Italy.
However can be sharp in which governing elites really are spending protesters’ complications as being a alert as well as rushing to make sure you brain away an dangerous confrontation. Regarding Sunday, to get at first chance, a few high-level shapes linked with all the Kremlin are inside the display.
Ex - Financial Minister Aleksei L. Kudrin, a member associated with Mr. Putin’s inside group pertaining to greater than 2 full decades, only took all the level to speak about their assistance for many of the protesters’ wants: your dismissal belonging to the travel with the Fundamental Election Payment, Vladimir B. Churov; a dissolution connected with Parliament as well as fresh elections; and even alterations inside the selection rule to permit for nothing competitors.
Mr. Kudrin published a write-up concerning Weekend around Kommersant, the highly regarded normal classifieds, observing a growing number of laborers involving think companies have been participating in a manifestations.
“It generally seems to everybody individuals had to claim the examples below: ‘Respected market leaders! A lot of us attended the following for the very first time, completely consciously in addition to totally at home. We have some thing to reduce, and even we're also designed for balance,coach バッグ ’ ” Mr. Kudrin said. “But your breach of one's recommendations - together with this can be a means you bring the details regarding muscle size falsifications and even infractions in record signs - this really excessively. ”
The particular billionaire Mikhail H. Prokhorov, having said he'll almost certainly function in opposition to Mr. Putin, seemed to be moreover during the guests, nevertheless she couldn't provide a good language. He or she landed wthout using secureness depth, stooping from time to time in order to resolution concerns not to mention stance regarding pics with the help of women.
Simultaneously Mr. Kudrin and additionally Mr. Prokhorov tend to be visited skeptically by just a part of typically the protesters, what individuals worry about some people characterize endeavors through the Kremlin that will thin down or possibly partition an effective completely new protest electorate.
“Sorry, just what association actually Kudrin be required to democratic routines? ” said Vladimir Varfolomeyev, some sort of publisher within the car radio network Ekho Moskvy, as a result of Twitter. “He’s a bureaucrat who's faithfully provided the actual routine to get 10 quite a few years. ” The moment Mr. Kudrin procured a period, they seemed to be booed by simply a few inside bunch not to mention cheered simply by others.
Despite the fact just about all demonstrators interviewed explained these folks hoping in avoiding some chaotic uprising, some left the alternative spending time on the atmosphere to be a caution. Aleksei Navalny, your doodlekit as their extensive acceptance established these kinds of protests during mobility, appeared to be welcome accompanied by a deafening roar through the crowd, which in turn was asking to check out her with regard to in excess of 1 hour.
“I can easily see that you have a sufficient amount of individuals right here in order to use the particular Kremlin, ” proclaimed Mr. Navalny, 35, which believed the sooner demonstration at the car radio at the same time serving 15 days or weeks around prison.coach 財布 “We really are a calming trigger and will eventually not necessarily do it now. Still in case those criminals as well as crooks check out to be cheating u . s ., should they carry on indicating lies not to mention thieving from united states, most of us takes exactly what is best suited for you to all of us using have possession. ”.

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