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« Crossing Swords Part 4: Joel Pollak's second response in his debate with Doron Isaacs | Main | SA Jews must not pick sides in ANC fight »

October 12, 2008


Steve, in the second Lord of the Rings movie, The Two Towers, during the siege of Helms Deep bymarauding Orcs, King Theoden asks Aragorn how one deals with such reckless hatred.
Aragorn answers "ride out and fight it'.
If Israel's football tems qualifies and comes to Sa in 2010, then, there will be massive hate-protests by the Muslims and their friends (probabely including the ANC and it's appendages such at the ANCYL, SACP and COSATU).

We in the Jewish community in SA will have a choice to hide in our houses and clubs, or to come out and meet the hate-protests head on.

It's scary, I know, but eventually we will have has to ride out and face the hatred. It cannot be put off for ever.


The above was written by me


"Ride out and face it"

Great quote...

Religious Fundamentalist 1

How can you possibly think about Soccer in 2010?

Don't you know that the INTERNATIONAL ACTUARIAL CONFERENCE will be meeting in SA on 2010?

Surely the latter must eclipse the former in stature, granduer and sheer publicity?

I haven't heard yet whether the Israeli actuaries will have to use a different entrance to the authentic middle eastern (read arab & aryan i.e. Iranian) actuaries - but they'll all be so busy looking at their shoes who would notice.

mumble out and calculate it I say.

The Sound of Awesome

All the Muslim states would boycott. I heartily approve of this.


im a die-hard muslim liverpool fan, but i love yossi benayoun. don't generalise. not all muslims hate jews just because of their religion.


Hi Ziggy,
Apologies if it seemed like I was generalising. I tried to veer clear from doing that by stating "the radical element of our Muslim community" instead of "South African Muslims".

I know not all Muslims will hate Jews because of their religion (I think its clear enough that it doesn't require any mention) but I also think it's fair to say that there will be some protest from many South African Muslims.

That said, I find it equally oiffensive when people hate Jews because of Israel - and again, I know not all Muslims hate Jews because of Israel.

I am also a die hard Liverpool fan and think Benayoun is a great player. He did well when he came on against City - setup our winner. Probably won't start many matches though. Kuyt looks to be favoured on the right and Riera is looking great on the left.

Religious Fundamentalist 1

"Not all muslims hate Jews because of their religion". And without generalising (or loss of generality), it can safely be said that not everyone hates Jews because of their religion - most hate Jews because:
1a, they communists 1b, they're capitalists
2a, they control hollywood and the world, 2b, they powerless nothings
3a, the control the world banking system and the money, 3b, they don't
4a, they have hemorrhoids, and kill christian/muslim kids to keep the blood supply up, 4b, they don't but keep letting people think they do
5a, they have long noses, 5b, they're short and ugly
6a, they're the devil, 6b, they're the worlds conscience
7a, most don't hate Jews, they just hate ______ (choose: zionists, israeli's, "those sorts of ...", settlers, haredim, mizrochnikim, etc etc)
you get the picture

Religious Fundamentalist 1

Ziggy, nothing personal, some of my best friends are muslims. Really.

Some of my best friends also like soccer.

Some of my best friends are actuaries. No actually, they're not.

Go figure.



Don't feel too bad. My brother is an actuary. We would never judge you public for it.


So Hillel, no best friends that are Liverpool supporters. You scumbag!



What you said here is so true:

"7a, most don't hate Jews, they just hate ______ (choose: zionists, israeli's, "those sorts of ...", settlers, haredim, mizrochnikim, etc etc)
you get the picture"

Hating Israel or Israelis makes one just a smuch as a bigot as hating Jews.
I don't know why the world sees the former as so much more acceptable than the latter.

What if someones said I don't hate Blacks, just South African Blacks.


With regard to the comment "Accusations of divided loyalties and violent protests will make for an uncomfortable time"
You raise an important issue here.
Why are we accused of divided loyalties because of our support for Israel but Muslim South African are never accused of dual loyalty for support of the Palestinians/Iran/Labanon etc.
During the 2003 Iraq War a Muslim garage worker, Marvin, said on the TV news that he is prepared to die for Iraq.
I am prepared to die for Israel.
But I will be accused of dual loyalties for this and Marvin will not.


in the 98 world cup in france, america played iran. as i recall, there were no violent protests against america in a country with a massive muslim population - much, much bigger than south africa's.

steve said that he finds it offensive when people hate Jews because of Israel. conversely, there are many jews that hate muslims because of the palestinian issue.


saying one hates Jews because of Israel is actually saying one hates Jews because of the Jew nation which dares to commit the affrontary to the Muslim ummah of actually existing and not agreeing to surrender (as of yet) to its Muslim neighbours. In other words, Israel is hated because it is the Jew nation, not the other way around. After all Muslim hatred of Jews goes back to the very birth of Islam itself. And don't tell me otherwise Ziggy, it is historically documented.

Ziggy, there are many Jews who dislike Muslims and in particular Islam because of the suicide bombing issue, and other acts of terror like rocket attacks, which millions and millions of Muslims around the world support and glorify; what you euphemestically call the "Palestinian issue" and the fact that Muslims generally hate Jews the world over in terms identical to Nazi hatred of Jews, Jew-hatred is preached in mosques and schools in Muslim communities around the world. Jews are attacked in France by Muslim youths and it is currently a Muslim regime in Iran with widespread support throughout the Muslim world that promises to make Tel Aviv the next Hiroshima..

Not all Muslims in SA hate Jews, but plenty do, although to be fair so do Catholics, Protestants and other Christian denominations hate the Jews, which explains the media which after all is not owned by Muslims. I don't see Muslim hatred of Jews in SA being greater than the hatred from the Christian community but that is not exactly comforting..


Ziggy, when Hezbollah attacked Israel and Israsel reacted in the 206 Lebanon War, thousands of Moslems and the ANC/SACP/COSATU sidekciks marched on the Israeli embassy in Pretoria, shouting at the women who worked inside: "We are going to kill you. you are going to die."
Of course I hate people who htreaten my brothers and siters like that.
I don't hate moslems pre se but I hate with a deadly hatred anyone who is against my homeland of Israel and against the Jews having sovereignty over our ancient homeland.
I hate anti-Zionist 'Jews' most of alli.e Jews who are agianst Israel.
I hate these evil traitors with all of my heart.


I would argue Ziggy that America is seen as far more legitimate than Israel. America is hated but its right to exist is not really questioned. Also 1998 was on the surface a much more peaceful world. It was before 9/11.

I agree with you on Jewish hatred of Muslims. I think it’s a huge problem. The conflict definitely does spill over into the streets of South Africa and I don’t like that one bit. Historically Jews and Muslims had a good relationship in this country. But over the last few years it has seriously deteriorated.
The only Jewish organization I know that has tried to solve this is SAUJS. They held a cooking for peace event but I know there was major opposition from certain sections of the Muslim community. I personally would be very happy to work on any sort of project like this that you could recommend that could start restoring dialogue between Jews and Muslims in South Africa.

It’s very important to me that we don’t hold people personally responsible for the perceived wrongs that their co-religionist commit.


Ziggy, Mike answered the US question well. Do you remember what the score was? I think Iran won :) Iran ussually has quite a decent side. Isn't it a pity that the heat can't be settled on a football pitch...with a Chiefs Pirates type encounter after which the respective fans share a coke?

Your point about some Jews hating Muslims because of the Palestinians is true. I don't intend to justify that. Still, I don't think you will see huge protests from the Jewish community if Palestine were to qualify (which they won't, but just imagine both Israel and Palestine qualifying...that would be beautiful!)

When Israeli ministers have visited, parts of the Muslim mainstream community (MSA, PSC) went nuts. I'm talking about peaceful dreamers like Shimon Peres. Abbas came to SA and the Jewish Board had a civil meeting with him! No extreme protests from the Jewish community.

I think that doesn't even accentuate the point I am making enough. These protests, against leaders of the Israeli peace movement have created painful and long-lasting resentment.

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