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« Why Israel ≠ Apartheid from a South African Perspective | Main | Islamophobia - Rational Fear or Prejudiced Hatred? »

March 20, 2008

Comments

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
How do you know that Zapiro's cartoons do not "stem from the same obviously anti-Semitic motives as the ones from the Arab world".

Is it not possible for a Jew to have the same "anti-Semitic motives as the ones from the Arab world" ?

Of course Zapiro will deny that he is antisemitic. But doesn't Ahmadinejad also deny it ?

Steve

Well I suppose I am giving him the benefit of teh doubt based on his anti-ANC background of opposing all forms of authority.

Are you suggesting I said that simply because he is Jewish?

Gary

Opposing all forms of authority?????
I've never seen him opposing Hamas in the Palestine Authority, ort for that matter the ruling regimes of Iran, Syria, Libya, and Sudan?
And by the way, I havent seen anything by his serpentine pen about the current Chinese supression of Tibetan protests either!

Gary

OK I was wrong in the last example. He just did do a very quick, half-hearted sketch about China and Tibet, but without the passion and detail in his Israel-bashing cartoons.
The fact still remains he has NEVER criticized an Islamic regime or terror network.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
As you have shown, Zapiro's cartoons can be construed as being antisemitic.
I suppose that if they are construed in this light, some people might conclude that Zapiro is antismetic.
I doubt whether such cartoons would see the light of day if they were being penned by a non-Jew and as a result the " He's Jewish" debate cannot be ignored.
Of course , Ronno Einstein has also used his Jewish identity to promote the " Israeli / Nazi" slur. I doubt whether the M&G would have been so willing to print it if he had been a Christian.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
I think Zap once did a fairly mild cartoon re Iran's holocaust denial conference.
But 99.99% of the time, he has lapped-up Ronno Einstein's foreign policy agenda re the Middle East.
Has Zapiro drawn a cartoon condemning the way that women are persecuted in Iran and Saudi Arabia ? I haven't seen such "artwork" and can only conclude that PC Zapiro won't confront such issues because he refuses to alienate the MRN/FXI/MJC/PSC/M&G/RONNO EINSTEIN/AZIZ PAHAD/COSATU etc etc.

Gary

Actually methinks Zaptrash might actually be lacking in some originality here and simply mass producing what he learned from the jihad school of cartooning.
Since these Arab (and Soviet) cartoons predate Zaptrash, one could conclude that Zaptrash's work is not 1005 original.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

The Nazi/Israeli analogy is particularly ironic when one remembers that it was actually the Mufti of Jerusalem (Palestinian leader) who was so friendly with Hitler. I wonder whether Zapiro is acquainted with this particular historical snippet.
When I listened to Ronno Einstein's "Beyond Victimhood" lecture a while back at Wits University, this fact was, for some reason or another, left out of his historical analysis of the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict. Does anybody know why??

Steve

You right Gary,
I shouldn't have said that he opposes all forms of authority - I should have said that he opposes all forms of Western authority.

I think he has an irrational hatred of Israel and the USA. I think he has an irrational romance for terrorist murderers.

I don't think he is a decent man willing to listen to both sides of a story. I think he is ultra prejudiced against Israel and the US.

I think his cartoons send the same message as the anti-Semitic Arab cartoons. I just don't think his motivation is anti-Semitism.

Dictator - Jewish cartoonists may push the boundary more often but I dont agree with your sentimen that its only published because he is Jewish. Brandon from the Sunday Times has cartoons that are just as bad. There is also that Australian cartoonist from The Age who is even worse.

Perhaps I have a less rosy view of the mainstream press than you have. I believe these cartoons pass as legitimate in the mainstream press regardless of who pens them. In fact I think that they are encouraged.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
I believe that Kasrils and Zapiro have legitimized the Israeli / Nazi slur and, by doing so , have allowed other non-Jewish cartoonists to jump on the bandwagon.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
You write that you don't believe that Zapiro's "motive is antisemitism".
What is your evidence for this statement ?

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
If you are suggesting that Zap's cartoons are antisemitic then a logical conclusion would be that Zap is actually antisemitic. It seems to me that you are reluctant to deduce something that is self-evident.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Mike/ Steve,

Might be interesting to blog the article that appears on Pg 3 of The South African Jewish Report...

Re The SAJBD meeting with Mbeki, Aziz Pahad etc on March 10th in Pretoria, David Saks writes:

(1) Strong possibility that Durban 2 will be hosted by South Africa.
(2) SA amabassador to UN and SA Foreign Affairs Dept " have agreed to work with the SAJBD in the lead-up to the event"
(3) Aziz Pahad stressed that antisemitism mustn't surface at Durban 2.
(4) Avrom Krengel suggests that NGO section of the conference be held at a different venue.

With regard to the above, I have 3 questions:
(1) Did The SAJBD discuss how Durban 2 could be stopped from turning into an anti-zionist hate fest ?
(2) Did SAJBD discuss why Israel , Canada and USA were boycotting Durban 2 ?
(3) Should The SAJBD be "working" with the SA govt in the lead-up to Durban 2 ?

Gary

Zaptrash also did a horrible cartoon demonizing the leaders of the free west who have taken a stand against terror and islamofascism:
Bush, Sarkozy, Brown.Zaptrash is a classic of the Islamofascist-loving lefty described in Horowitz' "Unholy Alliance".

Gary

"Aziz Pahad stressed that antisemitism mustn't surface at Durban 2"
Unfortunately my concept of what anti-Semitism is differs very greatly from what Pahad and SAJB see as anti-Semitism:
As far as I am concerned demonizing our brothers and sisters in Israel and justifying their murder IS anti-Semitism.
time to clarify the truth about the lie that there is a difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism
The enemies of Israel want the physical elimination of the Jewish people from the Land of Israel. This constitutes anti-Semitism.
The point is that they want a Judenreihn "Palestine" the same way that Hitler wanted a Judenreihn Europe.
The anti-Zionists claim that they are not anti-Semites but that think the only country on the earth that must be annihilated is Israel.
The anti-Zionists claim that they are not anti-Semites but that think the only country on the earth that must be annihilated is Israel.

The anti-Zionists claim that they are not anti-Semites but that the only children on earth whose being blown up is okay if it serves a good cause are Jewish children.

As regards the so-called 1 state solution favoured by so many sophisticated leftwing intellectuals today, we can discuss this all day and all night , but dismembering Israel into a single Arab dominated state means a second holocaust.

It means methodical massacre of millions of Jews , of hundreds of thousands of Jewish children.

Anyone who pushes for this '1 state solution' is actually pushing for a second holocaust.

Denying a nation's right to exist is genocidal racism, akin to Nazism, hence in my opinion , anti-Zionism is Nazism.

Only the hard-hearted, hate-filled and cowardly will deny Israel the right to exist and defend herself

Gary

If Zuma does sue Zaptrash then I'll support Zuma in this 100%
Better to silence Zaptrash's hideous little pen for good.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
What I find hysterically funny/bizarre/totally meshuggah is the SAJBD's conceit/naivety that they will, in some undefined way, be able to influence the course of Durban 2.
Of course The Krengels and Wendy Kahn "take a very nice pic" in the SAJR with Aziz Pahad and Mbeki but.....

Gary

To anyone who thinks that someone born Jewish cannot be anti-Semitic.
Just read about Max Naumann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Naumann

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
Re Jewish antisemitism, take a look at:

http://www.thejewishadvocate.com/this_weeks_issue/columnists/reinharz/?content_id=2305
or just google...
Fighting Jewish anti-Semitism By Shulamit Reinharz

Mediocrates

What prattle. Hate speech is what it is. If you heap image after image that reiterates the same blood libel hate speech over and over and over then you are in fact an anti semite, a racist and a tool. The claim that it's idiotic aesthetic completely different from the Nazis that engendered it is not only insipid but it's patronizing. "All my images are racist trash yet I am not".

Right. SA Jews will debate and navel gaze themselves right into a new pogrom.

Mediocrates

And let me add that Durban II will be a joke to the world, at least that part of it that thinks rationally. It will be one gigantic screaming hate filled antisemitic mob. Of course western Liberals and bloggers will be thrilled, the Arab world will construe it as truth handed down by Allah and the South Africans themselves will be torn between defending it and making excuses for it.

Good luck with that.

Gary

You know what actually upsets me the most about these type of Jews is that among no group in the world are there so many individuals who so single-mindedly attempt to damage the group into which they were born.
I mean would you ever find a Black person doing violently anti-Black racist cartoons that appear on the KKK website?
Would you ever get violently Black-hating Black spewing forth hate against their own at White Supremacist rallies?
What is it about the Jewish people that we are unique in having so many born into our nation, that hate their own nation with such a passion?

Brett

It was Jews who lets the Romans into Jerusalem
Most agree Torquemada was Jewish
Peace Now and the like throw stones at soldiers protecting their lives and demand removing checkpoints who's only job is keeping suicide bombers out Jewish areas.

Jews can be anti semitic and the can do and they can do serious damage to the nation, in fact (for the religiously inclined) they are the only ones who can cause damage to the nation. Zapiro's hated scares me far more than any Arab/Australian/European anti-semitism.

Gary

You are absolutely right, Brett, if we go further we see how the most rabid allies of the Greco-Syrians during the wars of the Hasmoneans against the Greeks were Jews.
We can go back further to the Korach and the Erev Rav.
It is predicted in Isaiah that our destroyers will come from within.
Nevertheless a psychological study of Jewish anti-Semitism/anti-Zionism is long overdue.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
I have just been reading Paul Johnson's devastating essay on Marx in his book "Intellectuals". It is a brilliant critique.
Johnson writes about Marx's virulent antisemitism and I think it helps explain the attitudes of many Jewish ANCronies. Ronno Einstein is perhaps the best example but, as you know there are a host of others.
For Marx, the greatest evil was capitalism. For the ANCronies it is Zionism. And of course, " The Jew" is central to both.
If Marx was alive today he would be condemning Zionism, and like so many other Jewish radicals, would also be immolating himself at the altar/cult of Islamic fundamentalism.

Benjamin

Reading through the comments, I got a little depressed. Gary and Blacklisted, before you end putting Zapiro in the same category as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad read this or this. Sometimes I despair that blogs are forums that are used to reinforce existing ideas rather than challenge them.

There is a subtlety that I think you have missed when looking at these cartoons: the difference between a picture of an Israeli dressed as a Nazi and an Israeli politician dressed as a Nazi. The one attacks a people the other a person. I don't think anyone here will complain about Mbeki dressed as Stalin.

Zapiro refused to carry a gun in the South African army he seems against most military action and I would geuss on a political spectrum he is probably slightly right of a passivest. That is a guess, I think his position on Israel is closest to this cartoon. The ones you have posted are certainly shocking (I felt almost winded after reading them), but I think you mis-categorize them.

Brett

Benjamin

Firstly, on what basis do you say that Zapiro's opinion is closest to the cartoons you posted as opposed to Steve's? Are you just a nice guy and giving him the benefit of the doubt? If so, what made him draw the above cartoons, such sentiment must come from somewhere?

Secondly, I personally couldn't care less what he really believe deep down in his anarchist little hart. If he is spewing out hate speech, offending, insulting and endangering his and our people then he is a danger and an enemy, regardless of whether he is doing it for money, attention or even a will to make the world a happier place.

Thirdly, even the cartoons you claimed to represent his views are brazen faced lies. I refer to the smart-bomb one.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
I am putting Zap in the Ronno Einstein EINSTEIN category. If it depresses you perhaps you should take Prozac?
Are you suggesting that Ronno Einstein is not in the same category as Ahmadinejad?

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
I mentioned in a previous comment that Zap did a cartoon about Ahmadinejad's holocaust denial conference.
Please show me some cartoons in which Zap satirizes Islamic fundamentalism, suicide bombing or the persecution of women in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
If you can't then perhaps you will get more depressed or more disdainful ??

Gary

Benbjamin writes of ZAPTRASH "he seems against most military action".
He has never imposed terror against Israeli women and children.
How peace-loving does that make him?

Gary

ZAPIRO, Fat Ronno and Ahmadinejad are ALL in the same categoree because they have made it clear that they would like to see Israel drowned in blood and fire.

Dr Segal

As for the central premise, that of Zapiro being anti-Semitic, I want to dissent from the crowd here.

I am Zionist and Jewish. I think that Zapiro's hostility towards Israel is the same as his hostility towards the US. He therefore does not single out Israel only. He targets the US probably more than he targets Israel and he targets the ANC more than both. (Although, it is more relevant for a South African leadership - but at the same time he comes from an ANC family and is therefore criticising his 'own').

His children attend a Jewish Day school in Cape Town. I don't imagine an anti-Semite would want their children to go to a Jewish school.

Benjamin

Firstly, on what basis do you say that Zapiro's opinion is closest to the cartoons you posted as opposed to Steve's?

I take the position based on the vast majority of his work, his history and interviews he has given. I know him mostly from his Cartoons, thats superficial, however on that basis your analysis is equally so.

If so, what made him draw the above cartoons, such sentiment must come from somewhere?

Well the one clearly came from anger over the Lebanese war, of course I have no idea exactly what he was thinking.

Who is Ronnie Einstein?

Please show me some cartoons in which Zap satirizes Islamic fundamentalism, suicide bombing or the persecution of women in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
If you can't then perhaps you will get more depressed or more disdainful ??

I don't know of any, there might be some. That however is not an argument. Imagine if I put up a comment: show me a post where Its Almost Supernatural criticizes Israel militry action. If you cannot does that mean it invalidates criticism, on this blog, of despotic Islamic fundamentalism? Of course not. Not opposing something does not mean supporting it. I didn't mean to be disdainful.

Thirdly, even the cartoons you claimed to represent his views are brazen faced lies. I refer to the smart-bomb one.

This I think is the core of the argument: Zapiro believes this. He doesn't think this is a lie.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,

RonNO Einstein is South Africa's Minister of Intelligence.

Re: Zap's refusal to satirize Islamic fundamentalism, suicide bombing or the persecution of women in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Your analogy re 'Supernatural" is inappropriate because it is quite clear what the blog's mission is.. it is stated openly.. "exposing anti-Israel bias in the SA media and promoting a balanced SA foreign policy towards the Middle East."
However, what is Zap's mission?? As a political satirical cartoonist, one would imagine that, inter alia, whe would satirize islamic fundamentalism, suicide bombing, persecution of women in Saudi Arabia and Iran. But Zap doesn't. Why ? Because he has an "undeclared"
mission and that is to support Islamic fundamentalism in its jihad against Israel.
If Zap put his "mission statement" next to his signature, I would disagree with him but I might, at least, respect him for his honesty.


BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Dr Segal,
If Zap's cartoons are antisemitic then it might well be logical and reasonable to deduce that he is actually antisemitic.
We do not know precisely why Zap sends his kids to a Jewish day school. Perhaps they receive the best education in the area and Zap wants them to acquire the best? However, I sincerely hope that they are NOT shot by Islamic terrorists (please refer to Zap's recent cartoon which is situated in a Jewish school and legitmizes the shooting of the yeshivah kids. )

Gary

OK, ZAPIRO is not anti-Semitic, he only the enjoys the killing of "Zionist children".
He only hates Jews who live in Israel.
He only wants 40% of the world's Jews to die.
Because that's the perecnetage of world's Jews who live in Israel.

Gary

OK, ZAPIRO is not anti-Semitic, he only the enjoys the killing of "Zionist children".
He only hates Jews who live in Israel.
He only wants 40% of the world's Jews to die.
Because that's the perecnetage of world's Jews who live in Israel.

Benjamin

Blacklist, I don't follow your argument about declared policy, I don't see how it relates to being able to disregard Zapiro's cartoons based on ones he hasn't drawn?

Let me make my point more clear, the statement: Please show me some cartoons in which Zap satirizes Islamic fundamentalism, suicide bombing or the persecution of women in Iran and Saudi Arabia. is a form of a Ad hominem attack.

If person Z proposes statement A, you cannot dispute argument A by saying that person Z hasn't proposed statement B.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
Sorry mate but I have not studied philosophy at university so I am ill-equipped to discuss your "ad hominem" argument.
Moreover, I reckon that most readers on this blog will conclude that I responded to your "Supernatural" argument effectively.
Do you also dispute my "Zapiro>Ronno Einstein>Ahmadinejad" argument?

Benjamin

Neither did I study philosophy at university (that stuff makes my head hurt), I do however subscribe to basic rules of logic which is all an ad hominem argument is about. If you want to criticize someones idea, criticize the idea not the individual.

You made a lot of points about Ronno and Ahmadinejad, not sure exactly which one you are referring to.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
It is reasonable to criticize Zapiro...
(1) He signs his cartoons "Zapiro". He is interviewed in the press and has a public persona.
(2) He would be unemployed as a cartoonist in South Africa if he lampooned Hamas and suicide bombing.
(3)He sympathizes with Islamic fundamentalism and the jihad against Israel.
(4) He equates Israeli with Nazis.
(5) He recently drew a cartoon which seems to legitimize the murder of Israeli schoolchildren.
(6) He is on the Ronno Einstein bandwagon. (Ronno Einstein is on Ahmadinejad's bandwagon).
etc etc etc

Benjamin

Blacklist,

(1) Completely agree. It is reasonable to criticize Zapiro.
(2) Doubt it.
(3) He disagrees with Israeli foreign policy, he doesn't (as far as I know) support Islamic jihad or suicide bombing.
(4) He attacks that foreign policy by clothing Israeli leaders in Nazi uniforms.
(5) I think we argued enough about that one.
(6) Given the cartoons he has drawn of Ahmadinejad he isn't a fan, no idea about Ronno.

If our only disagreement is on the interpretation of the cartoons then I think we are arguing semantics and there is not too much to argue. I would agree that anyone who supports the murder of school children or suicide bombings is amoral and should be condemned.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
Re
(1) I conclude that you now agree that it is reasonable to criticize Zapiro
"the individual" and not just his ideas.
(2) You are being naive. A cartoon criticizing Islamic fundamentalism in the Cape Times?? What planet are you living on?
(3) I wrote that he "sympathizes" . Didn't use the word "support"
(4) Not only Israeli leaders. He implies that Israeli soldiers are Nazis.
(6) Like Ronno, he equates Israelis with Nazis.
You wrtite:
"I would agree that anyone who supports the murder of school children or suicide bombings is amoral and should be condemned." I believe that Zapiro has implicitly, in a recent cartoon, "supported" the murder of Israeli schoolchildren. If you concur, then you also condemn Zapiro.

Bigben

Ronno subcribes to a form of thought that says that everything is a class struggle. Anything outside of that is nonesense. In his view anti-semitisim cannot be solved by nationalism (Israel) or religion (being Jewish)only by the whole world being communist. Extreme forms of this view see the Jews as being only figments of the capatalist enterprise. Ronno is anti-semitic by ideology.

On Zap, Nathan Sharansky talks about the 3D's when having to seperate legitimate Israel crit from anti-semitism. Demonisation, Double standards and De-ligitamisation.

Clearly zap is guilty of the first one. Even if he does critize other regimes sometimes he never uses the Nazi analogy, not on Darfur, not on China and not on Burma.

On the second you could say that he is often guilty on this attacking Israel and even Jews even when there is nothing about it in the press, not to mention his neglect of Islamism.

However on the third and perhaps most important point and dont think that I have ever seen him say that Israel does not have a right to exisist or anything actualy anti-zionist. Although his stuff is frequently used by people who have exaclty this agenda. It seems to me that he falls into that very left wing Jewsih agenda that indulges in anti-semitism but never quite goes over the edge.

In short I dont think we can quite equate him with Ronno or Immadinthehead of Iran.

He may be anti-animal cruelty but that does not make him completely a vegitarian.

Brett

I say again

Does it really matter what his personal beliefs are? If his works are those being used rabid anti semites then his cartoons are anti semitic. We've had 40 odd posts trying to get into the head of Zapiro when its not the head doing any damage its the hand.

Benjamin

Blacklist

No one is above criticism but it is illogical to criticize Zapiro because of what he hasn't drawn. I don't think Zapiro has supported murder of any innocent civilians. So no I don't concur.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benajmin,
Don't you think that Islamic fundamentalism, Hamas, suicide bombing, sharia law, the persecution of women in Iran and Saudi Arabia , the persecution of journalists in Iran etc are interesting subjects for a political satirical cartoonist who is concerned about the Middle East ?
You have to ask yourself why Zap does not satirize these subjects! It is not "illogical" to raise this point. Zap is extremely biased.
It is evident that Zapiro is on the MRN/MJC/PSC/FXI bandwagon and I certainly do nor see any difference between his attitudes towards the Middle East and Ronno Einstein's.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Bigben and Benjamin,
It is certainly worth considering the South African "intellectual" milieu in which Zap operates.
I re-iterate... Would the Cape Times (or M&G) publish a cartoon which really satirized Hamas etc ?
It is an extremely relevant question.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin
You have an idiosyncratic interpretation of Zap's recent 'School kids" cartoon. I think that virtually nobody sees it through your prism.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

RE: INSULTING CARTOONS.

Dear Na'eem Jeenah and Jane Duncan,

Does The FXI/PSC agree with Amyan al-Zawahri ? It is important to know where precisely the Freedom of Expression Institute/ Palestine Solidarity Committee stands on this issue...

"Like bin Laden, the al-Qaeda second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri. issued a threat against those countries in which cartoons of Muhammad were published, saying that "They cannot insult our prophet and support Israel and then expect to live in peace in the countries."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1205420761278&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

So... should the Danes live in peace or should they be bombed into submission?

Btw, are we safe in South Africa?

viva
blacklisted

ps; I have cc'd Prof Anton Harber (Wits School Of Journalism) as I know that he is particularly concerned about freedom of expression. Perhaps he can write a joint paper with Steven Friedman ?

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
What do you think about Zapiro's latest cartoon which satirizes the Iranian elections?

(Former reformist President Mohammad Khatami, who has been campaigning for reformist candidates, sharply criticized the barring of the candidates, insisting that Iranians should be able to choose their rulers freely.

"People want freedom," he told a large gathering in southern Tehran on Tuesday. "Freedom means people be allowed to question the ruling system and change it without use of force if the establishment doesn't respond to their demands."

He said "honest individuals" who were disqualified "are portrayed as deviant and supporters of America. This is deplorable. Worse is that it is done in the name of Islam," according to the speech posted on his Web site.

Khatami, a liberal cleric, was elected president in 1997 and during his rule social restrictions under Iran's Islamic system were loosened. But hard-liners prevented the reformist government from making deep changes in the law. Khatami stepped down in 2005 because of term limits, and Ahmadinejad won presidential elections.)

Benjamin

I haven't seen it, can you post a link? I read Zapiro via M&G online, where the latest one for today is on the lighting of the Olympic torch during protests over Tibet.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
Sorry amigo..
You haven't seen it because he hasn't drawn it.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
Have you any idea why Zapiro has chosen not to satirize the recent Iranian elections??

Benjamin

Blacklist

You are one strange fellow...

Of course if Zapiro had drawn a cartoon mocking the Iranian elections, then we must conclude he hates Tibetans and wishes a jihad on all their school children.

Gary

Dammit, Benjamin, what is this obsession of your with defending ZAPIRO?
Do you secretly agree with his Jihadist agenda or are you just in love with him?
He has made his hatred of Israel very clear, it takes a very dense person to conclude otherwise.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
Zap has had plenty of time to satirize China/Tibet and the Iranian elections.
Or is that just an illogical conclusion from "one strange fellow"?

Benjamin

lol, take it as a joke.

This comment post has got on waaay too long and we are just rehashing the same points. I am getting bored. Please refer to my previous comments about why I don't believe that is an argument. I will happily read anything more you have to say.

Gary,

I am not obsessed with defending Zapiro, he certainly doesn't need me to defend him anyway. But since you asked:

I simply have a different perspective, I have said before that might make me naive. I think your analysis is far to simplistic and you are caricaturing Zapiro. In that sense you shut down all conversation and in my view do a dangerous thing. Zapiro is clearly a smart funny guy (I am sure we have all laughed at some of his other cartoons). I would imagine that I would be able to have a reasonable conversation with Zapiro, I wouldn't with a suicide bomber.

Gary

Benjamin, maybe if one of your family or loved ones had died in a Hamas terror attack, you would not be so quick to call ZAPIRO a clever, funny guy.
He is a propagndist for Jihad, who Dr Goebbles would be proud of.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,

Might be best for anybody who really has nothing better to do, to consider the merit/flaws of our respective arguments.

Hope you get a chance to chat with Zapiro. (Of course a suicide bomber might blow you up before you have a chance to get your opening gambit in.)

Gary

Israel is a country fighting for her life against a ruthless enemy that aims for her destruction and the murder of her five million Jews.
these are the people controlling the Gaza Strip, firing rockets daily at Israel, teaching their children by television and in the classroom that killing Jews is their highest duty and honor, sending gunmen to murder Jewish students deliberately, and then celebrating that fact.
Iran is a ruthless totalitarian state that has vowed a nuclear holocaust against Israel.

To only condemmn those struggling to survive, while keeping quiet about the actions of the agressors does certainly demonstrate a sympathy for the agressors and their genocidal aims.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that out.

Dr Segal

"Of course if Zapiro had drawn a cartoon mocking the Iranian elections, then we must conclude he hates Tibetans and wishes a jihad on all their school children."

Benjamin, I have to disagree here (alhough I agree withh your overall premise).

If he drew tons of cartoons mocking the Tibetan leaders and was quiet on all Chinese abuses, then I think we could conclude that he is siding with the Chinese over the Tibetans.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Dr Segal,
I am amazed that you can agree with Benjamin's overall premise and yet you have the mental ingenuity to see that a problem arises when applying his "logic" to China/Tibet.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
I think Benjamin knows that he has been writing nonsense.
He writes above:
"I simply have a different perspective, I have said before that might make me naive."
naive: " simple, innocent or unsophisticated. Too trusting; credulous."
(Chambers Dictionary)

Bigben

Dictator

I think your comments over whether the Cape times would publish cartoons attacking Hamas is extremely relevant. Having never read the cape times I am in no position to comment. However I think it raises two important issues. The first is the make of the readership. Free speech is a fantastic theory but at the end of the day newspapers tend to print what their readers and other interest groups are interested in reading.

Certainly I have seen (albiet not that often) cartoons and political insight colums attacking Hamas in papers like the Star. Now as far as I know the Star and the Cape times are owned by the same media news house.

If you can print critical things in the Star but not in the The Cape times, then it points to two possible conclusions in my mind.

One: There is a concerted effort by the no doubt left leaning middle class members of the editorial board to be biased against Israel.

Two: The people who read the Cape Times simply wouldnt tolerate such critisim with their morning breakfast cereal and would end up cancelling their subscription or worse.

Either way it is a problem.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Bigben,
I would imagine that a much higher % of the Cape Times readership is Muslim ( compared to the readership of The Star).

Benjamin

Dr Segal,

I agree with you, that was meant to be a joke.

Blacklist

I don't think I am talking nonsense . If Zapiro is radical, where are the cartoons supporting Hamas, Saudi Arabia, Iran and suicide bombing? He has drawn cartoons that have upset Muslims see Is Zapiro Crazy.

Trudy

[Comment moved from incorrect thread - Ed]

Sad it is for me, an ex-Pat British Jew/Israeli, to see that South Africa is no different to all the other anti-semitic/anti-Israel 'western' democratic countries. Was it not the Jews in S. Africa, led by Janette (?) Suzman, who campaigned against Apartheid and helped bring it to an end? And now, what do they get in excange? Not only NO thanks or appreciation from the post-Apartheid ruling clique but rather far worse attitudes even than under Apartheid. Of course, the new S. Africa has its Jewish running dogs, but if they think that by bashing, defaming and slandering Israel, they will be spared retribution by SA anti-semites/anti-zionists for being Jews, they had better think again. The 'Good Times' post WW2 period for Jews is running out, not only in SA but throughout Europe, Britain, the Americas, etc. Jew hatred (under the guise of 'legitimate criticism of Israel') is spreading its traditional tentacles fast all over the world, and when the troubles start again, even Jewish useful idiot running dogs like Kasrils & Zapiro, and their clones elsewhere, will not escape the torrent. In fact, they will probably be its 1st victims, as happened to the Jewish Police in the Warsaw Ghetto (many of them converts to Christianity who had hoped not to be treated in the same ghastly manner as their former religionists). Once they had done their Masters' will - i.e. beating, starving, killing and dragging Jews onto the cattle wagons to Auschwitz, they were all shot out of hand. So Zapiro & Kasrils watch your backs, your comrades will disappoint your hopes and dreams without so much as a flicker of bad conscience crossing their mad minds. As for the rest of SA Jewry, please take care and be on your guard all the time so that you will not be taken too out of awares.

Steve

Re: the Star and the Cape Times

I think they run the exact same cartoons - alternating between Zapiro and Dov Fedler. Whilst its possible that Fedler may have done some cartoons taunting Palestinian terrorism, Zapiro hasn't.

I have never noticed a dramatic difference between the two newspapers on Mid East reporting and don't think that either of them are as bad as the M&G.

Steve

Benjamin,
There are 3 cartoons supporting Iran, Hizballah, Hamas et al in this post.

You playing on semantics if you say they are taunting Israel and not supporting these terror groups.

Dr Segal makes a point - if he drew toons always lampooning Tibet and never criticising China then we could assume that his anti-Tibet toons are also China supporting toons.

Interestingly the EU and UN both have similar definitions of what constitutes anti-Semitism.

Both includes:

* Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust; and
* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Benjamin

Steve,

Firstly there is a big difference between criticizing Israel and supporting Hamas, that is not semantics. You are making unfounded assumptions.

In the EU definition you have forgot the words:

taking into account the overall context could include

That is where I believe you are wrong. If someone wrote an editorial claiming that Israeli actions are exact mirrors to Nazi policy, I would be fully with you.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
The cartoon re "IS ZAPIRO CRAZY?" is hardly satirizing Islamic fundamentalism. However, the reaction to it from some SA Muslims reveals that it is very difficult for cartoonists to even start broaching the subject. To some extent, this proves my point about what is politically
acceptable as far as the SA press is concerned. Zapiro works in this milieu and probably, to some extent, panders to it.

You have admitted on this blog to being "naive" and one of the consequences is... "nonsense". It is possible that if you were less naive, you might start writing stuff that was more on the ball.
(Q: What is the difference between the optimist and the pessimist ?
A: The pessimist is better informed.)

Steve,
Can you get copies of Fedler's cartoons "taunting Palestinian terrorism"?
If you can, it would be interesting to see where they appeared. Perhaps you could create a link to them?

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
I would say that it is accurate to conclude that Zap "sympathizes" with Hamas.

Steve

Dictator,
I havent seen his cartoons taunting Palestinan terrorsim. I have seen a cartoon from him praising Israel. I like Fedler.

Benjamin,
You write "Firstly there is a big difference between criticizing Israel and supporting Hamas"

I could respond that there is a big difference between criticising Israel and comparing her to the nation that tried to blott out all Jews from the world. There is a big difference between criticisng Israel and portraying their leaders as deranged butchers.

Criticising Israel all of the time without any criticism of her detractors amounts to support for the detractors. You cannot focus on a conflict, hit only one side whenever there is tension, and then claim that you arent supporting the other side.

In the cartoon he refers to and legitimises 'resistance'. you may not agree, but its not so outlandish to then assume that he is supporting the resistance movements. That is the message he sends - whether he intends it or not.

As for context - well what is the context of the cartoons? A Jenin massacre that was nonexistant? (See the Nazi cartoon). Are you saying that cartoons can never apply by that definition?

Steve

By the way, Benjamin, I dont think he literally supports the death of innocent children as others in the comments have alleged. He just wants us to relinquish Israel.

I think he would genuinely be surpised and astonished to see the aftermath of the relinquishment.

A real anti-Semite wants us to relinquish Israel bc they approve of the aftermath.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
EU Working definition: "Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities."

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
I am not sure how useful it is to discuss how Zap sees the end of Israel/ Zionism.
Unless he has made direct statements, the only evidence that we have to go on are the cartoons that he draws, as well as the potential cartoons that he refuses, for his own politcal reasons, to draw.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
Sorry to be pedantic but are you certain that Fedler's cartoons "taunting Palestinain terrorism" exist ? Are you also sure that they appeared in the SA press?

Steve

I remember one by Fedler likening Hizballah to a rat - it criticised Israel as well. No, I dont have a copy of it. Yes it was in the SA press - Independent newspapers.

I also remember one where he praised Israel after the Gaza disengagement. Other cartoonists (Zap, Brandon) at the time criticised Israel mocking it as a token gesture but Fedler really praised it.

Also remember one from Brandon in Business Day showing Arafat cultivating terror. But Brandon is ussually just as bad as zapiro and that was his only ever toon criticising the Palestinians.

I think the fedler toon is somewhere in the gaza category...


http://supernatural.blogs.com/weblog/gaza/index.html

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
Seems that these cartoons are few and far between. Moreover, Fedler's Hizbullah/Rat cartoon also criticized Israel which removes some of its satirical rat bite.

I think that my point stands... the SA press does not satirize Islamic fundamentalism. It is an extremely important point, and with regard to this discussion about Zap's Israel cartoons, needs to be emphasized.
I have explained some of the reasons for the press failure to satirize Islamic fundamentalism and I believe that it is a craven response to the bullying tactics of the MRN/PSC/RONNO EINSTEIN etc lobby.

Benjamin

Steve,

I agree with blacklist, I am not sure how useful it is to discuss how Zap sees the end of Israel/ Zionism. see comment above.

There is a big difference between criticisng Israel and portraying their leaders as deranged butchers.

Without going over the same points, would you accuse Zaprio of racism against black people and an anti-South African stance for this cartoon?

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
I have taken the liberty to post this letter as I believe that the above discussion has extremely important implications for freedom of expression in South Africa.

(For those readers who don't know Duncan and Jeenah run the Freedom of Expression Institute in South Africa. Jeenah is also, inter alia, spokesperson for the Palestine Solidarity Committee)

Dear Jane Duncan and Na'eem Jeenah,

Is there freedom of expression in South Africa?

http://supernatural.blogs.com/weblog/2008/03/zapiros-cartoon.html?cid=108185164#comment-108185164

"I think that my point stands... the SA press does not satirize Islamic fundamentalism. It is an extremely important point, and with regard to this discussion about Zap's Israel cartoons, needs to be emphasized.
I have explained some of the reasons for the press failure to satirize Islamic fundamentalism and I believe that it is a craven response to the bullying tactics of the MRN/PSC/RONNO EINSTEIN etc lobby."

Posted by: BLACKLISTED DICTATOR | March 25, 2008 at 10:47

viva
Blacklisted

Gary

After the mass murderer Yassin (who had openly called for the murder of children) was blotted out, ZAPIRO did one particularly revolting cartoon that appeared in the Sunday Times depicting a fat and evil looking Sharon devouring a dove of peace labelled Yassin.
Now if you say that the Hamas mass murderer is a dove of peace, than that does, in my book, amount to supporting Hamas.

Gary

Here is another question.
If a cartoonist, during World War II, had done hundreds of cartoons mocking and demonizing the Allied war effort, but not a single one condemmning Hitler and the Nazis, would it be fair to assume he supported Nazi Germany.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
I am sure that Benjamin would refer you to some philosophical clap-trap to "prove" that the cartoonist did not support the Nazis.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
Re Yassin cartoon.
The problem is that you are using now facts to win an argument. Is that philosophically legitimate? Aren't you being unfair? Can't you be more naive? Why the hell are you so well-informed??

Benjamin

I don't normally quote President George W. Bush but here goes (on the assassination of Yassin):

As far as the Middle East, it's a troubled region, and the attacks were troubling. There needs to be a focused, concerted effort by all parties to fight terror. Any country has a right to defend itself from terror. Israel has the right to defend herself from terror. And as she does so, I hope she keeps consequences in mind as to how to make sure we stay on the path to peace.

Perhaps the cartoon was about the consequences on the peace process of the assassination? It is much more likely that the dove represents the peace process rather than Yassin. It seems to me that you are simply reinforcing your own biases. But of course that is only a philosophical clap-trap.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,

Kindly respond to Gary's "Nazi/Allies" comment. Or are you unable to summon the philosophical clap-trap ?

I will pass no further comment on the "Yassin" cartoon until I see it.

Steve

Dictator,

I think that my point stands... the SA press does not satirize Islamic fundamentalism. It is an extremely important point, and with regard to this discussion about Zap's Israel cartoons, needs to be emphasized.
I have explained some of the reasons for the press failure to satirize Islamic fundamentalism and I believe that it is a craven response to the bullying tactics of the MRN/PSC/RONNO EINSTEIN etc lobby.

Agreed. The lobby stifles all criticism of Islam.

Benjamin,
I dont need to answer because I don't think he is anti-Semitic. I see his anti-Israel toons in the same light as his viciously anti-US toons.

Still, its a good question so I'll try to answer. Perhaps others (maybe yourself included) can help.

I'll think of it in more detail later. Briefly, perhaps one could argue that with RSA he criticises all sides - DA, ANC etc.

Also its not as severe as drawing him as a Nazi. Many in the ANC would be proud of a comparison with Stalin. No - one would ever be proud of a comparison with the Nazis.

The comparison with Stalin is also devoid of the emotional content that comes along with comparing Jews to Nazis.

Furthermore, the Stalin toon plays more on his centralisation of control than a lust for blood (olmert the butcher) or massacres (Jenin).

One more thing, I think you once mentioned

"There is a subtlety that I think you have missed when looking at these cartoons: the difference between a picture of an Israeli dressed as a Nazi and an Israeli politician dressed as a Nazi. The one attacks a people the other a person."

You are wrong. The Arab cartoon shows Olmert as a Nazi. The caption makes it clear (I should have included the caption...)

Benjamin

If a cartoonist, during World War II, had done hundreds of cartoons mocking and demonizing the Allied war effort, but not a single one condemmning Hitler and the Nazis, would it be fair to assume he supported Nazi Germany.

Yes, I would say it would be fair to concluded that he supported Nazi Germany. Its a straw man, World War II was a global encompassing conflict, the Nazi's a powerful army capable of acting on a vast scale. To ignore them would have been psychotic. You might see the conflict as equivalent but, and this is the important part, Zapiro doesn't.

As far as the analogy goes, I do conclude from Zapiro's once sided coverage that he is very much against Israeli military action and believes that Sharon is a war criminal.

Gary

Benjamin, if he only satirizes Israeli REACTION to terror and not the terror itself, which he incidentally terms resistance in his cartoon about the school massacre, then it is obvious that he supports Hamas terror.
I am not going on with this argument because you obviously adore ZAPIRO and think butter wouldn't melt in his mouth and that he can do no wrong.

Steve

"Its a straw man, World War II was a global encompassing conflict, the Nazi's a powerful army capable of acting on a vast scale. To ignore them would have been psychotic. You might see the conflict as equivalent but, and this is the important part, Zapiro doesn't."

I like the point you make here. From your perspective its not a straw man, you are able to criticise both sides reasonably and rationally. And so you dont think that 'toons lampooning Israel are anti-S. I think that's a perfectly legitimate position.

But what complicates things is that from Zapiro's perspective IT IS A STRAW MAN!

Its all Israel's fault, the Palestinians have done nothing wrong, and Israeli leaders are butchers (Olmert and Sharon).

He see's an equivalence. Israel and the US are the Nazis and the Palestinians and friends are the Allieds.

Benjamin

That is an excellant point and I agree Zapiro has set up a straw man and I am not recommending his analysis. I have been arguing mostly against the anti-S charges.

(I would still disagree that he thinks Israel and US are the Nazis but that really is semantics.)

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
I think that the latest jargon is ZIONAZIS.
And I believe that the use of the term is not only extremely antisemitic but is actually designed to undemine the significance of the holocaust.

Gary

In referring to the evil slur comparing Israel and her people to the Nazis employed by so many hate-filled leftwing fanatics, Alan Dershowitz in his book "The Case for Peace" points out:
"Notice that Israel is never compared to Stalin's Soviet Union, to Mussolini's Italy, to Franco's Spain, to Castro's Cuba, to Pinnochet's Chile, or even to Hirohito's Japan. It is always and only compared to Hiter's Nazi Germany. I have often wondered what could motivate any person of presumed decency to compare Israel's treatment of Palestinians to what the Nazis did to the Jews during the Holocaust. Israel's goal is to protect it's civillians from Palestinian terrorism, whereas the Nazi goal was to genocidally destroy every Jewish baby, child, woman and man so as to eliminate the Jewish race. The analogy is obscene and yet it is repeated daily on college campuses, by mainstream European political activists, and even by writers and intellectuals. It's target audience is the current generation of college students too young to remember the Holocaust and too caught up in the passions of the day to bother to research the history. When alie is repeated often enough, it risks becoming conventional wisdom. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is anti-Semitism, pure and simple. There is no other explanation, especially in the light of the reality that there is no actual similarity between Hitler's systematic genocide of the Jews and Israel's efforts to defend itself from genocidal threats against it's Jewish population".

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

What are the implications of the term ZIONAZI ?
Well... if you survived Aushwitz and went to live in Israel, then you are morally identical to the Nazis who imprisoned you in Aushwitz.
It is reasonable to conclude that Zapiro subscribes to this view.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
Dershowitz is correct.. "Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is anti-Semitism, pure and simple. "

One of the tragedies of the post holocaust era is that so many educated Jews are unable to understand this basic point.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
Do you agree with Dershowitz ?
If you do, I can't understand why you don't conclude that some of Zapiro's cartoon are antisemitic.

Steve

Mr Blacklisted Dictator,

I agree with Dershowits.

I do conclude that some of his cartoons are anti-S.

Still not going to say that he himself is anti-S.

I think he is naive, anti-West. I think he is fed the wrong information and has a dangerously incorrect reading of the situation. I think his cartoons come from this incorrect reading more than they come from pure inbred hatred of Jews.


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