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« The Battle for the Soul of the ANC | Main | Al Dura Hoax Presentation at Harvard »

January 06, 2008

Comments

Roy

Let's hope that the SA Jews can educate the poor old man about Israel before he get's into power...

Derikboy

A disconcerting trait I’ve noticed among South Africans these days, as I continue debating the demise of South Africa, is sudden Zuma support. A few months ago, everyone I spoke to were deeply concerned about Zuma becoming president, threatening immediate emigration, should Zuma even appear to be winning the presidential race. Now that it looks almost 100% certain that he will be the president in 2009, suddenly, the people I encounter think that he will be the “best thing” for this country. It’s concerning that the arguments as to why he would be a bad choice (2 months ago) are forgotten or are irrelevant now. I can only attempt to explain this using psychology rather than economics. I get a cold feeling in my stomach when I wonder what will convince people that there is no more grass left at out feet to compare to the grass on the other side. In short, I’m glad you guys also aren’t jumping on the “Hey, Zuma’s not that bad” train.

Brett

Roy
What you say is dependent on Zuma's attitude towards Israel being based on his knowledge of the truth. The anti Israel pandemic in South Africa is neither rational nor based in fact or understanding.

Derikboy, psychology is an amazing thing isn't it. People don't even realise when they've done a complete 180. If I were living in South Africa, an delusionally optimistic I would do one thing. Make an Alamo. Decide on what would bve the last straw, the line past which you believe SA will more likely than not go the direction of Zimbabwe, and decide to leave if such an event occurs. Without deciding in advance South Africans are going to be jump through hoops after every warning signal trying to convince themselves of the brightness of SA's future.

Mike

I think there are serious risks. I am extremely worried about a Zuma presidency. But what frightens me more is the immediate consequences of him not getting in because of a conviction in the courts. What will his supports do if he goes to jail? He has tapped into the anger of the ordinary people. If he is convicted they will see it as an attack by the elite on them. God knows what they could do.

Roy

Ya - Zuma president and possible Zumababwe on the one hand, and civil war if he is convicted on the other...eish!

Derikboy

Precisely!

The very fact that Zuma's financial advisor fingered Zuma several times as an accomplice and benefactor of his fraudulent dealings, should be enough to prove Zuma’s guilt. Zuma becoming president will only happen if the legal system fails. Zuma not becoming president will mean that justice was served, but to what end? As Mike points out, the options are not great. South Africa is in real trouble, and people are still justifying everything! Now I’ve heard every excuse under the sun why South Africa won’t “go Zimo” (I believe I’m the first to use this term), and I notice that nobody says the same thing about why it won’t go Zimo. Everyone has their own ‘special’ reason why it won’t go Zimo, and each reason is a little different then the last. This doesn’t make me feel like there is an extensive list of reasons, this makes me feel like there isn’t actually a proper, clear and valid reason why South Africa won’t go Zimo.

Roy

Ok, just to add an extra view:

If Zuma is not found guilty (i.e. he is not a criminal at all), he will be our president for 5 years. As long as our democracy is still intact, he will be replaced by some new face in 5 years time.

So while at the moment it seems as though the writing is on the wall, I believe SAfricans are blowing the whole matter out of proportion. (Remember pre-1994?)

"This too will pass"

Joel Pollak

Let me add my two cents here. I was one of those NOT terribly worried about a Zuma presidency before he won the ANC race. A third term for Mbeki would have been pretty much the worst thing imaginable. Not that I am excited about Zuma--his stance on Zimbabwe is far worse than his stance on Israel--but I think that both the fear of a Zuma presidency and the sudden enthusiasm for Zuma are quite exaggerated. The good thing is that Mbeki--and Kasrils--have been rejected by the ANC. The bad thing is that Zuma's got his own crowd--the Shaiks and Max Ozinsky and so on. The thing to be most concerned about is the damage that will be wrought over the next year or so as Mbeki and Zuma continue their struggle through state institutions. The MOST IMPORTANT thing is that political leaders and journalists (and blogs like this one) continue to speak clearly and openly and fearlessly about what is going on. The BS meters are going to be off the scale and the need for straight talk is greater now than ever.

Steve

Excellent comment Joel,

I have to admit that I was one of those that exaggerated about immigration if Zuma won and have now tempered my opinion.

Perhaps my dislike of Mbeki has tainted my reluctant acceptance of a Zuma presidency.

I think we can all agree that we are more scared of Zuma's supporters than then man himself. But he can't please them all. He can't please Phosa and Nzimande at the same time can he? So who will it be? At this stage no-one knows.

The fight with him and Mbeki will dominate and we won't know until it happens!

This morning the Scorpions boss was jailed. Things look bad.

Mike

Joel, I agree. There is clearly a perception that Mbeki is using the courts against Zuma. I am not entirely sure if this is true or not but the perception alone is very dangerous. If there is no faith in the independence of the judiciary or in fact it proves not to be independent then we are in real trouble.

Hillel

I've never been a Zuma fan, but I don't think he's diabolically evil - just corrupt. In other words, he's in it for the money, and himself. He doesn't appear to be a demagogue.

On the other hand, one shouldn't forget Lord Akton's aphorism.

Joel is quite right, a third Mbeki term would be worse because of its imputed meaning on the state of democracy in SA. At least a Zuma government allows the chattering classes to pretend democracy is still alive in SA and in general as a concept outside of the big Evil Satan - the USA. The more pertinent question is perhaps whether JZ will keep this hope alive at the end of his 2 terms, that is assuming he doesn't forget to take a shower next time he doesn't take "no" for an answer and survives 11 yrs.

Back to the initial point though, assuming JZ doesn't decide to dabble in a dose of demagoguery, (as I've pointed out before on this blog) he's likely simply to follow the money. i.e. big business, and saudi oil. Big business might be rational and may not punish the Jews or Israel - Saudi oil money though (and the sha[i]k[e] dispensers thereof) are a different story altogether.

Steve

Saudi oil money though (and the sha[i]k[e] dispensers thereof) are a different story altogether.

hahaha

Well we not the only one's that will be enamoured with it.

Hillel

Mike, it is difficult to use the courts against someone who is squeaky clean. However,

The fact that the perception exists points to an already existing lack of faith (or down right hostility) to the judicial system. This may be part of the "legacy of apartheid" or it may just be the spreading americanisation - either way I don't think it's a problem unique to SA. (See for instance the M&G's Thought Leader on the Belgian paedophile)

What such a lack of faith bodes for society as a whole is a different story - one perhaps already hinted at by current crime levels.

Steve

On the judiciary, it amuses me how the ANCYL shout with glee about how the courts have foudn JZ innocent after the rape trial and then they say that the courts cant be trusted to give him a fair trial with the corruption case.

They really are an entertaining bunch. Really, read Mbalula's story of the fishing expedition. Its hillarious. The ANCYL should rather not speak and not remove out doubt about their ability to think.

http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/Insight/Article.aspx?id=672919

Gary

Let me be upfront. I dislike the ANC/SACP as a party but I have not been one to single out Zuma for criticism or mistrust.
I am not one for this Zumaphobia, but I am not happy about SA's future as long as the ANC rules.

I believe he is no worse than Mebeki, Lekota, the Pahads etc.
But Joel
Why do you say: "Not that I am excited about Zuma--his stance on Zimbabwe is far worse than his stance on Israel".
If naything his stance on Zim is better than Mbekis.
He criticized Mbeki's mollycoddling of Mugabe a few days before the Polokwwane Conference.
Also Mo Shaik is reputed to have said that a Zuma gov will concentrate more on Africa than the M.E.
If Zuma is more vicious on Israel than Mbeki has been I will soon grow to hate him though.
But hey- every cloud has a silver lining- and let us take pleasure and joy from the fact that Kasril's evil star is on the wain.

Joel Pollak

Zuma affirmed his essential agreement with Mbeki's approach to Zimbabwe shortly after becoming ANC president, I believe. (http://allafrica.com/stories/200712210972.html) Perhaps that's just talk, but I don't see Zuma doing much that's different, although Cosatu may have more leverage over his Zim policies than it did over Mbeki's.

On Israel, I don't anticipate any real changes. The bad rhetoric from South Africa will continue. The Israelis will mostly ignore it and continue to do business with SA--though, increasingly, it seems that Israel is developing other alternatives in Africa. Lev Leviev is building a new diamond empire in Namibia and Israel is quietly providing development and humanitarian assistance in a number of other places. In short, Israel will be less dependent on SA for mineral imports and diplomatic support. But SA will remain important as a possible go-between in Israel's confrontation with Iran. Its position on the Security Council makes it very important to Israel, at least for another year or so. I think the odd SA-Israel tension will continue, though it could get more interesting.

Gary

Israel has many friends in Africa and really doesnt need SA.
Nigeria and Cameroon attended the 40th Jerusalem Day anniversary celebrations along with 6 other countries.
Rwanda, DR Congo, Uganda, Ghana, Togo and Cote D' Ivoire all criticized SA's bias against Israel a few years ago.
Israel has very good relation with Ethiopia.
MOst African couintries did vote for Israel's readmittance into the Red Cross, even though SA didn't.
To dismiss SA's attitude to Israel as typical of Africa is a grossly ignorant mistake.
Most of Africa is on far better terms with Israel than SA is.
The question one maybe needs to ask is why SA has a particularly antagonistic attitude towards Israel.

Lawrence

it's important to understand that the ANC and for that matter Zuma's bias against Israel has been fully adopted/learned from European South Africans, this is where it comes from. The irony is that in their anti-Semitic prejudice the ANC, COSATU etc reveal themselves to be more like their hated enemy and former oppressors, the old NP and their supporters, than they could ever recognise. They have learned well, in times of turmoil and conflict, scapegoat the Jews (ie the Jew nation in contemporary times) as a diversion from your own corruption, brutality and incompetence - works like a charm.

Zuma is both incompetent, corrupt and stupid, partial to supporting Islamotheocrats and makes me very pessimistic about SA's future.

Expect the rand to dive further with his ascension to power.

Joel Pollak

I think Lawrence is correct that anti-Israel bias in South Africa is largely an elite phenomenon. Surveys show that South Africans, like Africans in other predominantly Christian countries (and one or two Muslim ones, too) side with Israel more than the Palestinians in the conflict. That isn't borne out in media coverage but it remains true beneath the chatter.

Gary

But without access to the internet where do the masses get any info other than the prejudiced crap dished out by the SA media?

Steve

Lawrence, the Rand hasn't really dived that much since Polokwane. Its at 6.85 or so as of today. Not such a dive since the Chinese move into Standard Bank which move it from about 6.15 to 6.60

The sub prime fall outs have affected the Rand more than his ANC election victory.

I see your point though, that it may dip if and when he becomes president and his policies may indeed be to weaken the Rand. Just nitpicking that you said, "expect it to divefurther" because it hasn't really taken such a knock yet.

bigben

I think the Zuma issue boils down to two factors.

Number one: Who is pulling what strings in terms of possible corruption?

Number two: How strong will the left be in pushing policy?

In terms of the left, the results so far dont seem to be one way or the other. Mixed in with the more radical stuff are a lot of policy suggestions are simply extentions of what Mbeki was doing already.

Hopefully Zuma will make Africa the focus of his international policy and Israel will fall off the radar. If the left is is very influential this might not happen.

On the first point: If you want a non-corrupt politician, vote for your granny.

Gary

Bigben writes: "Hopefully Zuma will make Africa the focus of his international policy and Israel will fall off the radar".
Having Fat Ronnie and the Pahads out of the picture might help.

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