SAJBD Cuts a Deal with the SABC

Response at 30-07-2007

We contacted the SAJBD for comment in response to our earlier criticism of the deal they made with the SABC around last year’s blacklisting scandal. Their response, from National Director Wendy Kahn, follows.

SAJBD Response to Criticism over SABC Deal Thank-you for giving us the opportunity to respond to your comments on the SAJBD’s decision not to go ahead with its complaint against Dr Snuki Zikalala. The points raised go to the heart of what the SAJBD is and what we seek to achieve on behalf of the Jewish community. The Board is first and foremost a Jewish advocacy organisation. We intervene in all cases in which we believe Jewish civil rights have been infringed. In this regard, much of our work involves media activism. Thus, when we learned that Dr Zikalala had blacklisted Paula Slier from reporting on the Middle East because the SABC as a matter of policy took a pro-Palestinian stance, we had no hesitation in lodging a formal complaint with the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa. The decision to withdraw our complaint was not an easy one to make. It is a very serious matter when a senior official of the State Broadcaster declares, contrary to the SABC’s policy, that its news coverage must be slanted towards a particular political point of view. That this bias was explicitly in favor of the Palestinian (and therefore, by definition, against the Israeli) standpoint made this of particular concern to the Jewish community. On the other hand, pursuing an official complaint with ICASA is not a matter to be adopted lightly. For over nine years now, the Board has been involved with ICASA regarding its complaint against Radio 786, and the matter is still not at an end. The process has been enormously complicated by matters of a technical nature, and there is every prospect that a complaint against the SABC might follow a similar route. This is not in itself a reason to shy away from the legal route, but it does very much come into the reckoning when an opportunity presents itself of settling the matter “out of court”. In making our decision, we had to make a judgment call as to what would best serve the interests of the constituency we represent. It was decided to provisionally meet with Dr Zikalala to see whether the core dispute we had with him could be resolved without the matter going to a formal ICASA hearing. It cannot be too strongly emphasized that we did not decide to withdraw our complaint on the basis of a single “feel-good” meeting and a few verbal reassurances. We asked for, and received, a number of concrete undertakings by the SABC to work with us in addressing the problem of anti-Israel bias within the organisation. These undertakings, which we now have in writing, are: 1) An independent monitoring organisation will monitor the coverage of the SABC news on the topic of the Middle East for at least a year. The SABC is currently using Media Tenor, and this will most likely be the organisation used for this purpose. The SABC and the SA Jewish Board of Deputies will meet on a quarterly period to discuss the content of the coverage by Media Tenor. The latter will commence operation as from the 1 August 2007, and the first meeting will take place in the first week of November. 2) The leadership of the Jewish Board of Deputies would meet with the editorial staff of the SABC, to provide an understanding of the SA Jewish community and its views on the Middle East. 3) The Jewish Board strongly recommended that where debates on the Middle East take place, moderates from both sides be used. They noted that there was no insight to be gained by allowing those who refuse to recognize the right of the other side to exist, to debate the Middle East. The suggestion was made that genuinely even-handed academics be used to discuss the situation. If the appropriate people were unavailable in South Africa the journalists should look elsewhere. We have since already had the opportunity to address and engage with senior members of the SABC editorial staff in Johannesburg and nationally via teleconference facilities. This was an excellent forum for us to develop relationships with these key people in the SABC, answer their questions, bring to their attention our concerns over the way the Middle East conflict has been depicted and in general provide a face for the SAJBD and the SA Jewish community. The process of engagement we have initiated with the SABC will be an ongoing one. The quarterly reports of Media Tenor will be of special significance since they will provide a considered analysis by a respected, wholly impartial media monitoring body, whose views cannot be casually dismissed as partisan. So far as the broader question of the independence of the national broadcaster goes, this is indeed an issue of national importance, and it concerns Jews no less than it does other South African citizens. Addressing it, however, falls outside the mandate of the SAJBD, whose mission, as already noted, is to act as a lobbying body specifically on matters of Jewish concern. Addressing the wider implications of the blacklisting scandal rightfully falls within the purvey of such democratic watchdog groupings as the Freedom of Expression Institute. The latter is already dealing with the matter in a most dedicated and professional way. WENDY KAHN NATIONAL DIRECTOR

We thank them for their reply. You can find our original entry below.

Correction at 02-08-2007

The SAJBD has notified me that the points in their letter about Benjamin Pogrund and Bassem Eid meeting with the editorial staff of the SABC to discuss the Middle East from both a Palestinian and an Israeli perspective were not in fact part of any agreement. I have updated their letter to reflect this.

Original Entry at 29-07-2007

Representatives of the South African Jewish Board of Deputies (SAJBD) last week cut a deal with South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) strongman Dr Snuki Zikalala. In exchange for withdrawing the SAJBD’s complaint with the Independent Complaints Commission of South Africa (ICASA) over the blacklisting of Jewish journalist Paula Slier, Zikalala promised to ensure more balanced coverage on the Middle East. Thankfully the Freedom of Expression Institute (FXI) has stuck to its guns and is continuing with its complaint against the SABC and Zikalala.

The SAJBD is portraying this as a victory for their strategy of quiet diplomacy. In a Chamberlain like statement in this week’s South African Jewish Report (SAJR), they were reported to be ‘upbeat over prospects of genuine even-handedness by the SABC’. While fair reporting at the SABC is welcomed, it is not something that we should have to bargain for. It is enshrined in the SABC’s code of conduct.

In securing a potential short term lull in SABC anti-Israel coverage, the SAJBD has harmed democracy in South Africa long term. Dr Zikalala’s policy of using the SABC as an ANC propaganda machine is an ugly example of the increasingly authoritarian nature of our government. South African Jewry should be at the forefront of opposing and exposing this behavior; not appeasing and endorsing it. Not only because it’s the moral thing to do, but because a vibrant democracy in South Africa is in South African Jewry’s best interest.

The old SAJBD has rightly come in for a lot of criticism for its appeasement of the apartheid regime. But its behavior toward the ANC government may in fact be worse. One particularly abhorrent event that the SAJBD is often castigated for is the honouree banquet it held for Prime Minister Vorster (one of the foremost champions of Apartheid and a former Nazi sympathizer) in 1975. What is largely forgotten is that in SAJBD chairman David Mann’s address to the ‘distinguished’ guests, he bravely declared that South Africa ‘must move away as quickly and effectively as is practicable from discrimination based on race or colour.’ If only our current leadership had displayed the same courage in their meeting with Dr Zikalala.

It is becoming increasingly clear that the SAJBD, rather than lobbying the government on our behalf, is lobbying us on the government’s behalf.

Steve adds:
I think that there is a place for settling differences with ruling authorities via negotiation instead of foghorn diplomacy. It does have its virtues - - instead of bashing your opponents, meet with them and focus on common goals as a means to settle points of departure. Sure, it makes sense for certain contexts. But is this approach appropriate in this context?

I don’t think so. Initially I viewed this as a small and positive victory. But the SABC blacklisting scandal is not just about securing even handed coverage of Israel. It is about the independence of the public broadcaster. It's about the freedom to express opinions and views that are contrary to the ANC. It's about the freedom to express criticism of our policies regarding Zimbabwe. Hell, it's about allowing analysts like William Gumede (himself a fierce critic of Israel) the opportunity to be heard.

The SAJBD argues that the South African Jewish community is too insular and needs to become more integrated with greater South Africa.

I agree.

But this deal does not integrate us; it is an inward-looking deal which further segregates us. Just take a look at the second comment on this page at the FXI to understand what I mean.

Previously at IAS

• SABC impairs free speech, again
• SABC refuses to air controversial Freedom Day ad
• SABC Blacklisting Summary
• Bias...what Bias?

Comments

[Gary]

"The SAJBD argues that the South African Jewish community is too insular and needs to become more integrated with greater South Africa".
Does that mean accepting and marching lock in step with the ANC's neo-Leninist worldview?

Does it also mean sacrificing Israel and jumping on the 'burn Israel' bandwagon.
The SAJBD needs to answer these questions.

[Hillel]

Notwithstanding that some situations call for "quiet diplomacy" and other's call for "vocal diplomacy" and some for just killing the person about to kill you ...

The SAJBD's actions suggest the implicit assumption that appeasement will buy SA Jewry the opportunity to live comfortably, luxuriously, ostentatiously and quietly for a little longer. This is the action of a community under siege (i.e. a step back to common middle ages Jewish practice in a desperate effort for survival) and not the actions of a minority group comfortable in its democratic surroundings.

The question is, is SA a democracy that respects human rights etc, and will it remain so?

The answer to this question will determine whether you pay homage to the Feudal lords in an sycophantic effort of self - preservation (and not a bad strategy if that is what is called for, indeed it may very well be the absolute best option available) or whether the correct response is to fight on the basis of the self proclaimed constitution of the country.

While the former strategy has not always been effective, I don't recall offhand where the latter strategy ever worked for Jews and to think that we've suddenly entered the utopian enlightened world of humanism and respect for all men appears to me only slightly naive in light of the various other posts on this blog (Darfur, the FXI, Israel coverage in general, rising anti-semitism not least in Europe etc)

I'm not suggesting that keeping quiet and doing things as inconspicuously as possible is a bad idea, it may in fact be a good idea. On the other hand, it's not what one would expect in a free country.

[Steve]

Great comment Hillel, it is a complex issue. But to keep it to this single issue - I think we have survived well enough with anti-Israel SABC coverage.

I dont think the short term benefits are worth the price and risk involved (see the criticism in the comment at the FXI).

[Hillel]

Steve, I saw the FXI criticism. I'm not quite sure though if you're referring to the short term benefits of "quiet diplomacy" or the short term benefits of "loud diplomatic advocacy".

As I said, I am not sure what the "correct" solution is, but I would suggest that whichever way you play it is likely to hinge on how secure you see the Jewish presence in SA, and indeed minority opinion in SA in general.

Are the Jews in SA on sufferance of the government, or does the community have a right to be there? i.e. Should you go with the flow, not rock the boat and hope to survive, quietly or are you an equal rights citizen in which case you have a moral obligation to speak up. (You may indeed have a moral obligation anyway, it just may be subordinate to the risk of being lynched - G-d forbid).

Remember, just because there is a body of law that suggests the community are equal partners, doesn't automatically translate that theoretical reality into practical reality.

I know the way I see it. But the question is, how does everyone else see it?

[Steve]

What I meant was that I don't think the potential short term gains from making this deal are worth the price.

[The Blacklisted Dictator]

The SAJBD has made a monumental mistake. I am uncertain, however on reflection, whether the deal that Zev Krengel cut is (1) extremely
cynical or (2) just naive.

Na'eem Jeenah (FXI / PSC), amongst others, will of course be delighted that The SAJBD's credibility is in tatters. However, this should not obscure the fact that The FXI's response to Zikalala has also been deeply flawed (I have explained my reasoning on The FXI website)
I hope that Paula Slier, Joel Pollak and Geoff Sifrin (editor of The South African Jewish Report) will soon make their views known.

[Gary]

At a recent discussion evening about the Iranian nuclear tyhreat, Krengel defended the SA position on Iran, and I know Krengel is a card carrying member of the ANC.

[Mike]

Hillel, great point. The real crux of the debate is South Africa really a free society. The SAJBD’s behavior implies that they are working on the assumption it is not.

I, perhaps naively, believe that we should be challenging it to be a free society. So I advocate speaking out against its authoritarian tendencies. If there is no future for democracy in SA, I don’t think there is a real long term future for Jews here. I can not think of any examples where Jews have survived long term in non democratic countries.

Anthony,

Welcome back! You right thier credibility is in tatters.

[The Blacklisted Dictator]

If The FXI is now saying that Snuki Zikalala's ANC affiliations have influenced his decisions at The SABC. Surely it should also be evident that Na'eem Jeenah's multiple portfolios outside of The FXI have also influenced The FXI's position on important freedom of expression issues?

The FXI should not be used to routinely secure a pro Islamic anti-Zionist agenda in South Africa.

It can have no credibility if it is, inter allia, a steadfast ally of The PSC and MJC. As a result Na'eem Jeenah should either resign from his position at The FXI or resign from the other positions that he is currently holding.

Like Snuki Zikalala, he wants to have his cake and eat it.

[theo]

So the SAJBD has provided Snuki with a 'Truth Commission' option: give us a fair shake on Middle East coverage and we will forgive you for your racist blacklisting of Paula Slier.

Mike is right that fair reporting is not something to be bargained. The SABC's Code of Conduct should be the standard that all citizens should revert to in situations like this and not be held hostage to 'special arrangements'as an outcome of 'forgiveness' based on colluding appeasement with no gaurantee of longevity.

The options of 'quiet' vs 'foghorn' diplomacy presents a false dichotomy. Rather the best interest of Jews in this country (and all other citizens for that matter) is better served by participating in the best structures of our unfolding (but flawed) democracy. Clear, pricipled engagement contesting the autocratic behaviour of people like Zikalala can only enhance the contribution that Jews (and others) can make in developing and strengthening our newish democracy. There is nothing idealistic about such engagement and nothing necessarily confrontational about it as well.

Steve notes that "the SAJBD argues that the South African Jewish community is too insular and needs to become more integrated with greater South Africa". However the way to proceed here should not be grounded in passive co-opted 'deal making' collusion with unaccountable autocrats, like Zikalala, with a partisan politically alligned mission.

Quite paradoxically the SAJBD stance only exacerbates the insularity (and long-term insecurity) of Jews in this country through the non-participation stance it has taken in the black listing saga.

In the process, also, our role as full citizens of this country has been diminished.

[Hillel]

Theo makes a perfectly logical and well reasoned argument. The only thing not incorporated into the world view of his argument, and I daresay this is perhaps one of the key issues that defines the way "traditional" or conservative Jews view the world in relation to the way the general intellectual public views the world, is that 2000 years of history teaches us not to place our faith in the notion that leaders are not capricious.

Using this as a lense, Israel in particular and Jewish leadership in general suddenly looks very different, as do the religious/secular, right/left and integrationalist/separatist divides.

I don't suggest this is the "universal panacea" but it does offer some explanatory effect.

[Jak]

2000 years of exile has shown that Jews never will and cannot expect to be accepted and "integrated" into the foreign societies in which they live.

It's time to dispell the myth that the current Jewish exile in South Africa is qualitatively different to the exiles of Jews for the past 2000 years.
As much as we can try and integrate, we should know that we will never accepted. We will always be "outsiders" and history has shown that if we refuse to learn this lesson the easy way we will be forced to learn it the hard way.

However today's Jews do not have to bow our heads to the nations around us as we were forced to do for so long.
We have our own state today and that is the only society where we will ever be accepted. Jews worldwide should give up the game of trying to appease their host countries and declare proudly that Israel is our only home.

[The Blacklisted Dictator]

"So far as the broader question of the independence of the national
broadcaster goes, this is indeed an issue of national importance, and it concerns Jews no less than it does other South African citizens. Addressing it, however, falls outside the mandate of the SAJBD, whose mission, as already noted, is to act as a lobbying body specifically on matters of Jewish concern." (Wendy Kahn)

Are we now to assume that freedom of expression in South Africa is not specifically a matter of Jewish concern ? Wendy Kahn should also take cognizance of the fact that The FXI is extremely disappointed that The SAJBD has withdrawn their ICASA complaint. The FXI needs all the support it can muster to ensure that The ANC's interference at The SABC is excised asap. Without the wider backing ofcivil society it is likely that The FXI's campaign will falter.

[BlackSAn]

I've read all the comments to this blog and I think Theo has really encapsulated the dilemma and pointed the correct way for Jews to respond. I'm not a Jew and not from a "minority community" in South Africa. I dont believe there are minority communities in a liberal democratic state where individuals, not groups, have rights. A lot of the comments on this page reminds me of the arguments made by the NP in the early 1990s when they tried to secure group rights for white people. It was an attitude based on fear. I dont see why Jews should have any fear in South Africa and I dont see why Jews should debate "integration". You either regard yourself as a South African citizen or as a "long term tourist", like Jak seems to be. If you think like Jak, I would question why you are even IN South Africa. Why not go to your "own state". As a Black person reading these comments I also feel as if there is a sense among some Jews that they just can't trust Black people, as if Black people will revisit the Holocaust on Jews. That is just plain stupid and also racist.

[Steve]

BlackSAn,
You raise many points that I would like to respond to but haven't the time right now.

But I would just like to challenge you to support your NP comparison by elaborating on your argument.

- Where do we sound similar?
- What are we asking for that is similar to what the NP asked for?

The central theme of this thread is that we demand that the SABC upholds its own constitution and presents news without bias. Is that a terrible NP like demand?

I look forward to your reply.

[BlackSAn]

Steve. The problem with your comment is the use of the word "we". Probably all the comments on this page are by Jews (except for me). Yet they are not all the same. My comment was regarding a particular viewpoint here, not everyone's viewpoint. I was criticising Jak, some of what Hillel had said, etc. I wasnt criticising Theo.

Im mostly in agreement with what YOU said in this page, expecially: 'But the SABC blacklisting scandal is not just about securing even handed coverage of Israel. It is about the independence of the public broadcaster. It's about the freedom to express opinions and views that are contrary to the ANC. It's about the freedom to express criticism of our policies regarding Zimbabwe. Hell, it's about allowing analysts like William Gumede (himself a fierce critic of Israel) the opportunity to be heard.'

My comparison with the NP was regarding the fearmongering by the latter that whites will, in a democratic South Africa, be swamped, disadvantaged, oppressed by black people and, therefore, it needed to ensure constitutional protection for whites as a group. Some of the comments on this page tend towards this notion of group protection. And talk of "integration" hints at that as well.

One big difference between people on this page who have said these things and the NP is that the NP never claimed, in the 1990s negotiations, 'we have our own state', somewhere outside South Africa, as has been said here. That smacks of a lack of loyalty, lack of patriotism and, as a Black South African, I can legitmately ask someone who says that why he bothers living here

[Steve]

Ok, you correct, I misread your point. I totally understand your response to some of those comments.

The SAJBD's deal is leading the Jewish community down the wrong path. The irony is that they believe that they are following a path of integration. But they are confused. They believe that ties with the ANC must be strengthened at all costs, even to the detriment of the freedom of our society.

But it's not all bad within our community leadership. Take a look at this initiative being led by the Chief Rabbi of South Africa around the idea of religios leaders contributing to the moral regeneration programme via a bill of responsibilites. Link is http://allafrica.com/stories/200707200949.html

I think its a positive development.

[Hillel]

BlackSan

I look forward to Mike's comments. I'd like to point out a few issues too.

While I'd like to comment on each of your points in some detail there clearly isn't space. So I've copied a few of your main points and then offered very brief notes, or at least I tried to make them brief.

__________________________________________
1) "I dont believe there are minority communities in a liberal democratic state where individuals, not groups, have rights."

That's fine, but just about everybody else does recognise group affinity, and it's not contradictory to democracy. Perhaps the group doesn't have rights, but certainly the individuals are free to identify with groups and lobby accordingly, that's democracy. (You define yourself as a Black South African, and presumably place some importance in that).

Further, while it might be comforting to believe that this is how SA should work, Snuki's comments and actions, not to mention some of governments other actions, don't necessarily support this notion.

2) "A lot of the comments on this page reminds me of the arguments made by the NP in the early 1990s when they tried to secure group rights for white people. It was an attitude based on fear. I dont see why Jews should have any fear in South Africa and I dont see why Jews should debate "integration". "

The reason you don't see why Jews have anything to fear is precisely because of your liberal minded credentials (this is not a slur as it might otherwise be misconstrued, but rather a genuine compliment), and because you don't know what it is to be the brunt of 2000 years of exile, pogrom, expulsion, inquisition, Holocaust and the intended target of suicide bombers, nuclear terrorist and nuclear terrorist states and various other distasteful characters. Note the rise in anti-semitism throughout the world, as well as the various attacks on Jewish institutions.

Jews by and large are indeed fearful, and history has taught us to be. The same arguments you present, i.e. that we live in an enlightened world etc were advanced a mere 70 years ago and less, in the then centre of culture ... Germany. That today Germany/Europe is again considered the liberal and enlightened spearhead, and that it's also the epi-centre of resurgent anti-semitism is informative.

At present it may seem like Jews should have no reason to fear living in SA. However, the general SABC attitude as well as subcurrents in government (Kasrils, Pahad et al) with regard to Israel and the linking to the SA Jewish community are ominous. They may be nothing, but would you stake your life on it ...

Further, with regards to "integration", in the Jewish context this is far more than participation in national life and is an issue far too complicated to deal with here. SA Jews, practically since their arrival, have always been an integral part of all aspects of SA communal and national life, from soldiers drafted to the SADF, to conscientious objectors, to Helen Suzman and Kasrils himself (i.e. from the sublime to the ridiculous, those we can be proud of and others). I don't think the key debate is integration, I think it's a question of to what extent Jewish communal organisations should be involved in matters that are not specific to Jewish communities but are rather national issues.

3) " I would question why you are even IN South Africa. Why not go to your own state"

Which precisely goes back to why "we" are fearful. You may not be the type to call for your machine gun to murder the "non-patriotic, parasitic, money-stealing Jews", but there's no shortage of people who can easily be persuaded to do so. SA is no different to the rest of the world.

Not to mention the fact that it seems the vocal majority doesn't think a Jewish state should exist ... in which case where exactly do you recommend we go?

Note, the "solution" to your point is to suggest that Jews assimilate/integrate i.e. disappear. Not only has that not worked in the past, not only does it open a myriad of historical and theological problems, but more specifically, in a liberal democracy like you suggest SA is, why isn't the individual Jew welcome to do as he pleases assuming he's otherwise law abiding?

4) "As a Black person reading these comments I also feel as if there is a sense among some Jews that they just can't trust Black people, as if Black people will revisit the Holocaust on Jews. That is just plain stupid and also racist"

Please don't be offended. It's not that "we" don't trust black people. It's that we have a long history to suggest that irrespective of who our hosts are (Spain, Portugal, Britain, Germany, Poland, Russia, Iran, Iraq, "persia", Greece, Rome ...) we ultimately get kicked in the teeth and escape pennyless(if we're lucky) or far worse.

It's definitely not stupid to worry that it may happen again, since their is no evidence to suggest it can't. Africa's own history suggests that it doesn't take well to minority groups, or "weaker tribes". No inference has been made to race, and further, the same fears were expressed in 1960's and 1970's and 1980's SA. In other words, "we" were afraid of the government then as now.

It really has nothing to do with race, and to assume it does smacks of "racism" ;-) (Actually I would suggest it smacks of the South African obsession with race issues, but that's a different matter)

To your final point (this is not a personal attack on you BLackSan, it's merely an observation)
"One big difference between people on this page who have said these things and the NP is that the NP never claimed, in the 1990s negotiations, 'we have our own state', somewhere outside South Africa, as has been said here. That smacks of a lack of loyalty, lack of patriotism and, as a Black South African, I can legitmately ask someone who says that why he bothers living here"

Any of the Jewish readers will recognise in this statement throwbacks to attempts by Germany's Reform movement to replace Berlin with Jerusalem in the prayers as well as the desperate attempts of German Jews to prove their loyalty to the FatherLand. Sadly, those hard earned WW1 Iron Crosses joined their owners in the mass graves not many years later.

Lastly:
I don't think that the comments reflect a lack of loyalty or patriotism, I think they reflect the opposite. They reflect a desire and a care to see a country improved and a nation healed. They reflect hurt when the country, in this case in the form of the National Broadcaster, acts unfairly.

Many comments focused on the stance of the SAJBD which really was the core issue. (Most of) The other comments sought to ask or comment on what the SAJBD's actions, as well as the SABC and governments, suggest about the acceptance of Jews in SA and on what that acceptance is contingent. i.e. what is the price of acceptance.

You've made clear what you believe the price for acceptance is.

[Mike]

I agree with a lot of what Hillel said.

Firstly, I just want to make it clear that my criticism of the South African government has nothing to do with race. The Minister I rip off the most, Ronnie Kasrils, is white and Jewish. My concern is the state of democracy in South Africa.

Jews are worried about the rising tide of anti-Zionism in South Africa particularly it spilling over into attacks on SA Jews and SA Jewish institutions. Blacksan, I am happy to provide you will the latest report on anti-Semitism in SA. Perhaps then you will understand why I am concerned.

Loyalty and patriotism are important but difficult questions. Does criticizing make you disloyal or is it the highest form of patriotism as Thomas Jefferson pointed out? Does one have to be patriotic to be a citizen of a country? These are interesting questions that need to be looked at. Blacksan if you want to do an article on it, I am happy to do a response. It would be extremely interesting to see your views.

[Steve]

Just to reiterate what Mike said:

1) Hillel, great points as usual.
2) Blacksan, if you willing to write an article on these minority group issues then we would be happy to publish it on this blog. It would be a great way for you to engage with the Jewish community and it may help us to understand how others see the issues that we try and deal with.

I turn to our magnificent coat of arms for this issue. In Khoi-San it reads !KE E:/XARRA /KE. Translated this means "Diverse people unite".

It embraces and acknowledges diversity. It doesn't warn against it. It says, be diverse, but unite as South Africans.

Ronnie Kasrils met this year with a member of the Hamas politburo and in front of a large crowd he publicly questioned the loyalty and patriotism of SA Jewry. That does scare me. My criticism of SA's foreign relations does not necessarily mean that I am not patriotic.

Its important to consider the way we view Hamas (whether you agree or disagree) and then contextualise Kasrils singling us out for criticism alongside a member of Hamas with a cheering pro-Hamas crowd.

[Gary]

Why are Moslems never accused of disloyalty for their identification with Iran, Syria, Hamas and Hezbullah.
Hell, why are Communists never accused of disloyalty for their idolization of Cuba, Red China etc?

[The Blacklisted Dictator]

Gary,
Perhaps the answer is that Muslims and Communists have power in South
Africa whilst Jews are left in the political wilderness writing
comments on the Supernatural blog ?

[BlackSAn]

Perhaps I will take up the offer to write a piece. However, a few comments will suffice for now. Firstly, let us be clear that I am not accusing Jews, per se, of not being patriotic. Being an occasional reader of Supernaturals, I see some real patriotism existing here and real commitment to South Africa. My comment about patriotism is not because certain Jews might support Israel (even uncritically sometimes) - just as some Muslms might support Iran or whatever other country.

But, let me give you 2 examples of why the question of patriotism is important. 1) Jak's comment that "we have our own state and that is the only society where we will be accepted" suggests two things. First, it suggests that South Africa is not his state; Israel is. Second, it suggests that Jews are not "accepted" in South Africa. Highly problematic suggestions and very dangerous sentiments (and I'm assuming that those are sincere sentiments from Jak and not just provocation.) 2) The SAJBD statement. The idea that (in my words) "our purpose is to protect Jewish interests and we dont really care about transparency or democracy or free expression at the public broadcaster as long as Jews get good press" is also suggestive of a lack of patriotism. I suppose it was this same sentiment that caused the SAJBD to support the apartheid government. Now they will act like they support the ANC. We in the movement are not fooled by them.

Hillel, your concluding statement to me that you know what I think is the "price of acceptance" had me scratching my head. What the heck were you talking about, I asked myself. I didnt say anything about acceptance or the price minority communities had to pay for it. There is no "price for acceptance". If you say you are a South African and act as if you are committed to this land; if you accept its problems as your problems, celebrate its victories as your victories, criticise its institutions (like the SABC) as your institutions; if you fight to protect and deepen its democracy; then you are South Africa. Or, to use your terminology, then you are accepted. No one sets a "price" you have to pay; you show your commitment by your actions. And whether you think Israel is a paragon of virtue or you think it is an Apartheid state is not the issue.

On another point you made, I am not saying there is no such thing as a group. There are lots of groups: based on religion, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, wealth, class, school that you went to, etc. All these groups have the right of association - as groups. However, their rights are not granted to them because they are such-and-such a group but because each individual in this society has the same rights.

Yes, I might not have a memory of "2000 years of exile.." etc. But I do have a memory of centuries of slavery and colonialism and apartheid. You are not the only victim on the block, Hillel. The difference between you and I is that you want to wallow in your victimhood and use it to beat others up with; I am willing to remember (and insist that my history will never be forgotten) but to move on. If Black South Africans had your attitude, none of you whites would be left in this country after 2 Feb 1990 or after the murder of Chris Hani or after 13 years of democracy when we see that White people still control 95% of our wealth and we are still victims dying without water and health care and jobs.

My question "Why are you even IN South Africa" was not directed to you or to all readers / comenters on this blog. It was directed to Jak because of a specific comment he made.

The "We are all Jews and will stick together right or wrong" group mentality that I sometimes see here (not by everyone and not all the time) is problematic. It is that attitude that allows the deputies to cut a deal with uSnuki. "Forget free expression and free media and trasparency and democracy; forget even Paula Slier; we are only concerned about Jewish interests" Thats what they said. Fortunately, the deputies dont represent the views of all Jews - as is clear from this blog where they have been correctly criticised. THEIR attitude is one that will deny "acceptance".

[Steve]

BlackSan,

"The difference between you and I is that you want to wallow in your victimhood and use it to beat others up with..."

I think history proves the opposite.

Instead of replying myself I direct you to some articles dealing with this issue my Mpho Tsedu at the Star.

I hope you dont find me arrogant in linking to articles of this nature. They are relevant in this discussion.

The first article is still online - click teh link

- Lessons to be learned from the Jewish Community

There is another better article - i am still looking for it. He wrote it after attending the march of the living. The Jewish community took him to see how we commemorate those that died in Auschwits by marching through the camps every year.

The text of the other article follows

"Nothing is stopping us from honouring our heroes the same way Jews honour Holocaust victims mphotsedu.

As he entered the Auschwitz camp, supported on both sides by his two daughters, Doctor Moshe Yageel, a 78 year-old survivor of the Auschwitz and Birkenau death camps, glanced at the words inscribed at the entrance of the camp. "I remember these words. They were there when we were brought here," he said. The words, written in German, say that "work will set you free". "I was a fool to believe that," he said adding that the words formed part of a strategy by their Nazi capturers to make them compliant.

As he continued to take me and other members of the 250-strong delegation from South Africa through his memories, many groups, mainly young people, arrived in large numbers. It was difficult to tell where they were from because most were flying the Israeli flag. It was a sign of pride displayed by Jews from around the world. Being used to the South African style of marching, I found this particular march "boring". There was no toyi-toyi or vibrant singing. However, there was something that I had not witnessed before.

The solidarity and allegiance of Jews to the state of Israel was beyond my imagination. Upon descending one of the bridges, a giant establishment loomed ahead, intimidating, as if haunted by spirits of the thousands of people it had consumed. A few hundred metres away, many took a brief break to look and confirm that this, indeed, was the death camp.

Some wept openly, while Dr Yageel fixed his eyes on the place he had once been frog-marched into. The names of the victims were read loudly through the public address system. I was deeply touched by the sight of young and old Jews laying plates of remembrance and lighting candles in memory of the victims.

Reality was finally dawning on me - people were killed in these camps. Not that I had ever doubted it, but as is the case with mankind, one never quite feel it until you are "there". Tears rolled down their faces as they sorrowfully sat on the rail lines and around the dilapidated buildings.

I asked myself what I would do if my people had experienced such horror. I couldn`t answer the question. In the midst of a sea of Israeli flags and foreign languages, there were lots of questions on my mind. One of them" was: what would unite my people in the same manner as the Jews were? I thought of many things that could get us to commemorate together with such dignity June 16 came to mind, but then I remembered - there`s the Comrades Marathon on that important day of our calendar. It angered me that the organisers of the Comrades Marathon do not even observe a moment of silence for the people who died on that day, an aspect that came naturally to the multitudes who had gathered at the March of the Living.

To the Comrades organisers, it was just another day of sport. To have a moment to remember our martyrs surely wouldn`t hurt, I concluded. In the Nazi death camps in Poland, I looked around me and saw some of the wealthiest South African businessmen, who had taken two weeks off from their businesses to come and commemorate the deaths of their loved ones and celebrate the liberation of the death camps by the Russian forces.

I wondered how difficult it would be for our business leaders to leave their businesses for the same period of time to commemorate the deaths of Oliver Tambo and Chris Hani or, or to have a Biko Week. The cold and rainy weather of Poland did not deter these people from waiting for the formal programme to start.

Even my newly-found friends took their minds off the lack of technological facilities and the uncomfortable beds to focus on this matter of international importance. After all, the UN, for the first time in its history, did acknowledge and commemorate the Holocaust - something Dr Yageel says is one reason that encouraged him to participate in the march this year. "Remember who you are: free Jewish youngsters, members of a nation which is spread throughout all continents, but whose hearts are in one place: a country which is its own - the state of Israel, the Jewish state," said Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon to thunderous applause. For me, he had summed up the reason why a crowd of almost 20 000 Jews had come together.

"Never again," shouted the jumbo television screens. Coming from a school of thought that says Jews make too much noise about their suffering, I asked myself: "who stops me from making noise about my history". The answer is, no one. I then realised that I have met more black children at the Johannesburg Zoo and at the SABC buildings on tour, than at the Hector Peterson Memorial or the Apartheid Museum. But unlike the Jews who do not have graves to lay wreaths on, we are fortunate enough to know where our leaders are buried."

[Hillel]

BlackSan

As i stated above, I agree with your sentiments on the SAJBD's attitude (and actions).

Acceptance
Kasrils, Pahad and other officials, by their statements have implied that Jew's are only welcome in SA to the extent that they are "patriotic". Their definition of patriotism is somewhat different to yours, and entails towing the party line and agreeing with them on issues, for example Israel / Zim etc.

While you don't make the same claims, I do get a subtle similar impression, i.e. the questioning of loyalty to South Africa and the questioning of patriotism etc when "we" discuss issues dear to us, including Israel, minority rights and so on. Let's agree to disagree on this issue, I wholely see your point, but you'll see in a moment where my concerns lie.

Oppression et al
I have no intention of using "victimhood" as a weapon. I didn't imply that I was owed something because of the history. At no stage did I use history as a reason for anything other than a warning as to what is possible. Note, "possible", and nothing more.

I didn't claim that I am in a predicament because of my history, nor did I suggest that someone else should help me because of my history or because of something that they owe me.
And while I take your point about colonialism and slavery, I don't think your argument is fair.

Jews, in general, after each expulsion etc tried to move on and rebuild somewhere else. SA Jewry is a modern example and proof positive of this attitude, as is the state of Israel. Not once did I suggest that because of our history we should take action against someone (whether perpetrator or current kind host country like SA), or anything near the extent hinted at in
"If Black South Africans had your attitude, none of you whites would be left in this country after 2 Feb 1990 or after the murder of Chris Hani or after 13 years of democracy when we see that White people still control 95% of our wealth and we are still victims dying without water and health care and jobs."

I think therefore that your portrayal of my attitude is grossly unfair.

What I did however suggest was that there is no reason to think that what happened before couldn't happen again, and that we shouldn't forget the lessons of history. This is nothing other than healthy scepticism.

Back to "acceptance"
As I'm sure you're aware the Afrikaner community is struggling to find an identity in current South Africa, as are other whites. The Jewish community too finds itself looking for understand how it fits into the current social milieu. Not too many decades ago they were forced to petition the government to be considered European / white. Today they find themselves again on the wrong side of the colour lines in "politically correct" SA. While many young Jews want to study to become professionals their career prospects are sometimes limited due to affirmative action and it's not uncommon for their "flight risk" to be raised in interviews at universities. People have been rejected from jobs because of their views on the middle east, and students alienated on campus for similar reasons. Don't under estimate the effect this has on the population or their feelings of "acceptance".

(I should temper this by saying that in my experience South African's in general are FAR more tolerant than anyone else I've met, but that's not really the point. I should also say that I'm not playing the victim or wingeing, I'm making the point about the acceptance you seem to assume is so forthcoming)

Sticking together
To your final point, Jews have a long history of absolutely no one else sticking up for them. Israel is no different, even Israel's "ally" the USA is prepared to sell Israel down the river for very little. The attitude of "We are all Jews and will stick together right or wrong" is purely self preservation. (In any event it's not entirely true since as you'll notice from the blog, there's plenty dissent, nevertheless)

Further, while I don't like the SAJBD's actions, they did make clear that the reason for "the deal" was not that they didn't think the issue was important, but rather that the issue was a South African issue, (i.e. a patriotic issue) and not one that should be LIMITED to the SAJBD.

Importantly , if you think you live in a liberal democracy, of individuals, you have to accept everyone, (assuming the usual caveats), even if they really think you live in a sh1tty country and you don't like their attitude. The starting point is acceptance, people shouldn't have to "prove" their loyalty.

That said though, I agree with you regarding JAK, it really is time he collected his darkon ... that's if he hasn't already.

[Jonty Reid]

I understand the dual loyalty of Jews in the diaspora. Israel is their mother and south africa their father.

Does having two parents make you less loyal to each one individually?

Should African Americans who have never even set foot in Africa be criticised as unpatriotic in the US because they feel a bond with Africa?

[Gary]

Greeks, Portuguese, Italians, Lebanese, Indians etc all feel loyalty to their countries of origin.
We are the only ones accused of being unpatriotic for this.
I dare not mention the dereaded word 'anti-Semitism' for fear of the usual :
'You Jews always accuse anyone who criticizes Israel of being anti-semitic' mantra.

[Steve]

Although it may look as if they are only concerned about Jewish interests from this specific incident, I can assure you that is not the case.

They are involved in many exciting projects with the broader south african community. I can find out more about these initiatives if you are interested.

Jewish institutions in SA contribute their fare share to the community at large. Look at the achievements of ORT which provides very low cost training to teachers and trainers in developing communities in SA.

Speaking at a function for Muslim achievers, Solly Noor said

"It was also the Jewish community that had brought credit to itself by building a school hall at Morris Isaacson School in Soweto, one of the important sites associated with the 1976 Soweto Uprising. The Muslim community had failed up until now to show similar initiative."

[Gary]

Sadly, whatever we do will not be good enough for the ANC/SACP et al.
We will be condemmned unless we march lock in step with their ''burn Israel worldview.

[Joel Pollak]

I have really enjoyed the above discussion. I don't think the blogosphere is politically marginal, though the Blacklisted Dictator's warning should be taken on board. It's important to have a space that neither the ANC nor the Board (nor the FXI, for that matter) can touch.

[Jak]

Just to let you guys know that I don't live in SA anymore, so no need to pressuring me into picking up that darkon...

[Hillel]

Well done Jak! I like a man who puts into practice the principles he believes in ... assuming of course that you're actually in Israel, or on your way there ... or in the service of some Israeli agency too secret to mention.

If only more people had the courage of their convictions!

[Jak]

Don't worry Hillel - not working for any secret agencies.
But I am in Israel.

[BlackSAn]

Jonty & Gary: Jak didnt say anything about dual loyalties. He said: "We have our own state today and that is the only society where we will ever be accepted. Jews worldwide should give up the game of trying to appease their host countries and declare proudly that Israel is our only home." The term "only home" does not indicate any dual loyalties; it indicates a single loyalty. Hence my question asking why he was even IN South Africa. (I now know he is not.) Furthermore, the term "host country" (which has been used more than once in this discussion) is a problem because it again implies that Jews are not really South Aricans but are just guests here. If thats how you understand your status here, then thats how you will be treated by the indigenous people. The question is not what price you have to pay to be accepted; the question is how you yourself see your status and your idntitiy.

Hillel, dont quote to me what Kasrils / Pahad have said and expect me to justify that. Reply to my comments, not theirs. The Afrikaner commnity and many other communitites might be struggling to find their identitiy, as you say. But that is different from saying that your home is elsewhere. Also, please dont bring affirmative action into the discussion. Firstly, Jews are not the only ones on the receiving end of it; all whites are (as all whites should be). Secnodly, your comments about AA, although couched in nice language, is offenmsive to me as a Black person who is a beneficiary of AA. Fact is, white people have benefitted in various ways under colonialism and apartheid and the playing fields now need to be levelled. But lets leave that for another discussion.

[Steve]

Although Jonty's comment does not apply to Jak and Gary, I think it does apply to the majority of SA Jews who do feel loyal and committed to South Africa.

[Jonty Reid]

Btw, i aint to Yid. But follow Torah.

you guys should be encouraged that you being criticised because SAn wants you to consider SA your home. He is embracing you as fellow South Africans.

But I think he is missing some important points that are part of the context and history of being a Jew in diaspora.

Btw, many afro americans consider themselves in the US as in the diaspora. They arent accused of disloyalty by any reasonable people.

Though certain american savages accuse them of dislpyaly no matter what they do.

[Gary]

BlackSAn, I now have a few questions for you, and I would appreciate straightforward answers.

1 In your opinion, does support or membership of an opposition party constitute unpatriotism or disloyalty to SA?

2 Do you support Israel's right to exist?

3 Do you believe -as Ronnie Kasrils- does that the killing of Israeli women and children , by Arab terrorists is justified?

[Hillel]

BlackSan

I don't expect you to justify Kasril's comments, nor did I imply that.

I do expect you to realise that a senior government minister making such comments doesn't make the community or the individuals comfortable, less so patriotic.

Comments of your own though, questioning peoples loyalty, implying that people are not welcome unless they're patriotic to your definition, that I expect you to justify. I expect you to justify why you so strongly believe you and your childrens children will be in SA, and similarly why you think anybody who realises that life isn't so certain is somehow a traitor. Jews are, and will always be (your words) "Long Term Tourists". You might want to take a step back and ask yourself how long you intend to spend on the soil of Africa and realise that nothing, at all, is forever.

If you expect Jews, the Afrikaner community and other people you so graciously now consider white, to feel at home, patriotic and loyal you need to make them believe they have a future. Which brings me to the next point.

I didn't "criticise" AA either (as you point out, that's a discussion for another time). My point is, if you want people to feel loyal, wanted, accepted, "at home", patriotic and so forth, you can't make it extra difficult (even if for other reasons it's the "right thing to do") and then wonder why they feel awkward.

[Aside: AA is not a "taboo" topic, to make it such is a very dangerous step. Similarly, bandying about accusations of racism, nazism and so forth is dumb]

As to the point about claiming that your home is elsewhere. At the extreme, (ala Jak!) sure, the lack of "loyalty" is obvious, but then the opposite applies too, JaK is clearly loyal enough to Israel to move over. For all those trying to tread the grey area inbetween, I don't see that it's not possible to be loyal to more than one issue, provided they are not opposite.

Asking Jews to give up their affinity for Israel is not a simple issue. It's not simple because of 2000 years of history, it's not simple because of a covenant at Sinai, it's not simple because Jews have always been wanderers, never welcome, and have always dreamed of having a home. The fact that they currently have a home in SA, and a back-up plan in Israel, doesn't necessarily contradict their loyalty to SA nor does it necessarily imply forsaking their heritage.

While it's important to try understand other people, one must accept that at some point one doesn't have the same life experience to see things perhaps with the same nuances.

What you'll also notice is that while Jews' loyalty to Israel is assumed to imply a lack of gratitude and loyalty to Israel, there doesn't seem to be a lot of shouting about other dual loyalties. This makes Jews feel singled out, and less welcome ...

If you are so sensitive to my comment about AA, which wasn't offensive and simply stated that people had problems getting jobs, then you should similarly apply that sensitivity to the points you raise. You are not the first to raise such points. From Pharoah onwards, there are numerous examples, and while I don't accuse you of similar objectives, know that it's a slippery slope that has lead to many disasters in the past.

Hence, the Jewish community is infinitely sensitive to any hint that they are no longer welcome for whatever reason. Thanks for your hint, I got it.

[BlackSAn]

Gary:
1. No
2. That question is irrelevant to the discussion we are having
3. This question is also irrelevant but since it's an issue I feel strongly about, I will take the bait: I dont think that the killing of civilians is justified in any context, whether they are Israeli civilians or Palestinian civilians or Sudanese civilians or Iraqi civlians or any other civilians

[BlackSAn]

Hillel:
Why do you attribute to me things that I do not say then ask me to defend them? That is a very deceptive tactic in debate.

"Comments of your own though, questioning peoples loyalty, implying that people are not welcome unless they're patriotic to your definition, that I expect you to justify."

Please go back and read what I said. I did not say what you accuse me of.

"I expect you to justify why you so strongly believe you and your childrens children will be in SA, and similarly why you think anybody who realises that life isn't so certain is somehow a traitor."

I did not say any of those things either. Actually I dont believe that people who dont think life is certain are traitors. How do you understand that from what I said? As for my children, I dont know what they will do or where they might want to live. I am not a fortune teller. That is their choice. I do hope that they will be loyal to whichever country they decide to live in.

"If you expect Jews, the Afrikaner community and other people you so graciously now consider white, to feel at home, patriotic and loyal you need to make them believe they have a future."

"Graciously now consider white"? What the hell does that mean? Are South African Jews not white? Are White Afrikaners not white? Have I ever said otherwise?

You are wrong: I do not have to make anyone believe anything; it's up to everyone to believe what they want. But they must not pretend to be what they are not and if they pretend to be of me but have no concern for my struggles and my future then I have no obligation to accept them as my own.

I just read Pollaks blog about the Deputies. With that kind of history, why should i have to make them believe anything? When they sold out my people to apartheid? On the other hand, i also dont need to make pollak believe anything but i do think i can embrace him as my brother South African, even if I disagree with him abuot Israel. Do you not see the difference?

Referring to afrirmative action, you say: "if you want people to feel loyal, wanted, accepted, "at home", patriotic and so forth, you can't make it extra difficult (even if for other reasons it's the "right thing to do") and then wonder why they feel awkward."

You insist that everyone must understand what it means to be a Jew, part of a community that has been persecuted. But you refuse to try to understand what it means to be a Black South African, what it meant to be regarded as being only good enough to be "hewers of wood and drawers of water", what it meant to be educated so that we could fulfil only those roles, what it meant to be regarded as sub-human by people who justified their oppression with the Bible, how 90% of the people of this country were deprived of decent jobs and now just want the opportunity to catch up.

You talk about feeling "awkward". How awkard do you think I feel in front of my father who did the most menial work for all his life so he could try to educate us, who still lives in a shack and i stand before him as a middle class black man working for those very people who exploited him.

If you want to be accepted in this country by black people and to be regarded as loyal, then you should be supporting the right of black people to redress the injustices of the past, you should be supporting affirmative action. Frankly, you are lucky to be debating with me rather than millions of other black people who would spit in your face for your insensitivity to our plight. And yuo expect us then to "understand" your suffering? But I have nwes for you, even if you dont believe me: I do understand your suffering. Of course, reading the arrogant way in whcih you write, I suppose you will now even deny me the right be be able to understand?

As to your point about being "loyal to more than one issue", did I say you cant be? My point was that if you claim to be loyal to South Africa, that loyalty must mean something and must have certain consequences. Im not going to repeat; go back and read what I wrote earlier. And dont quote the Bible to me as justification. Discuss this matter with me on the basis of history, ethics, morality and justice, without having to invoke some supopsed deal made with God.

If you carefully read what I have said yuo would notice that I did not say tat "Jews' loyalty to Israel is assumed to imply a lack of gratitude and loyalty to Israel". I wasnt talking about Israel; i was talking about South African Jews' attitudes and behaviour in this country. Yo can feel however you like to about Israel, but how do you make yourself part of THIS nation is my concern?

"If you are so sensitive to my comment about AA, which wasn't offensive and simply stated that people had problems getting jobs..."

Take a look at the unemployment statistics and then tell me who are the people who are really having problems gettig jobs! Jews? Whites? No, my friend, Black people make up the bulk of the unemployed, in sheer numbers and also proportionately. I live among unemployed people; I have to support unemployed people. So dont dare tell me about how difficult it is to get a job. How dare you, a White South Arican, lecture me, a Black South African abuot unemployment!

And, again, your closing statement makes broad attacks against me: "the Jewish community is infinitely sensitive to any hint that they are no longer welcome for whatever reason. Thanks for your hint, I got it." I have tried pateintly and painfully to explain that I believe that Jews (or, at least most of them) in this country are real South Africans, that they have no need to be "accepted", that, however, they do have a responsibility to become part of the fabric of this society. Your interpretation of all that is that I am saying Jws are not welcome in this country? Maybe I was wtrong about you; maybe you are not Jwish and white; maybe you also suffered under Bantu education and that is why you cant understand English.

[Hillel]

BlackSan

This will be my last comment on the matter, as this is getting beyond the scope of the post. I'll therefore keep this as brief as possible.

Point 1: Your arguments/Posts
Read again through what you said, in your initial posts and in particular in the last post.

Not only do you contradict yourself, but you specifically and explicitly say the things I initially said you'd hinted at saying originally. (see below)

Point 2: Discrediting Logic
In a number of places in the post above (e.g. the bible references, AA etc) you miss the point of the statement and then attempt to discredit the proof using something non germaine to whether the point I made could in fact be drawn from the reference. i.e. Whether Pharoah did in fact enslave the Jewish people or not, doesn't change the inference drawn. Similarly for your comments on AA and unemployment. You may be right, but it's irrelevant.

Point(s) 3:
- Don't attack me personally, it doesn't aid your argument.
- You need to move beyond your victimhood to understand how other people see the world. (Note, I'm NOT implying necessarily to the negation or diminishment of the history/suffering) in other words ...
- This wasn't a discussion about oppression of black people, this was a discussion about how SA Jewry relates to the "new" SA.
- Much of your umbrage is thus misplaced.
- You also have a lot of stereotypical misconceptions that don't help your understanding of SA Jewry, or at the very least, not a very good understanding of the history of SA Jewry.

To me, the following comment just says it all:

"If you want to be accepted in this country by black people and to be regarded as loyal, then you should be supporting the right of black people to redress the injustices of the past, you should be supporting affirmative action. Frankly, you are lucky to be debating with me rather than millions of other black people who would spit in your face for your insensitivity to our plight."

[Hillel]

Back to the original topic of activism and quiet diplomacy, here's a text case:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1186066396303&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Steve]

Hillel,
Link doesn't work

[Hillel]

I inserted the "link" as text so it can be copied & pasted into the browser, since i assumed the comments didn't support links.

It worked when I tried it, but if it still doesn't work, go to JPOST.COM and look for the following article:

Aug. 6, 2007 20:52 | Updated Aug. 6, 2007 21:01
Our World: History's unsettling verdicts by Caroline Glick.

[Steve]

Interesting article. Sad indeed.