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« Leon Slams ANC over Its Support for Hamas | Main | Kasrils Engaging in Hate Speech? Denial to Follow »

June 26, 2007

Comments

Hillel

Maybe it's the heat, but I find myself, cynically, positing the question whether anything at all has been achieved - or will be achived.

I've followed for some time now the comments on this blog, and that of the blogs of various posters (HardRain, Couriouser and Curiouser, Front-Line, Walton's Anarchy ... er sorry that's Red something or other Coven, Guide to the Perplexed, Atlas Shrugged etc) in amongst the likes of Avnery, Melanie Phillips etc (Apologies to Melanie with the company I've put her in)

What seems painfully clear is that while the opinions in certain blogs evolve over time and incorporate new ideas and new facts to assist opinions and proposed solutions to evolve, opinions in certain other blogs are typically reduced to the same sloganeering repeated ad-nauseam year after year. The implications of which are obvious ... except to those repeating their stale little mantras.

Suffice it to say that repeating that the "world is flat" doesn't make it so and refusing to consider an alternative hypothesis doesn't make the first hypothesis correct. "Proving" your assertions by repeating obvious lies doesn't aid much either, save to make them worse before they improve.

If anyone is confused as to what I mean, let me give a few examples. The slogans most often repeated (a non-exhaustive list) like a lousy Christmas jingle are: "It's the occupation - stupid", or "It's all the fault of ill-conceived US foreign policy/globalisation", or "if Israel would just pull out of the WB & Gaza, remove road blocks, etc etc all the shooting would stop". It doesn't take a genius to realise that most of this sloganeering has been proven false in the last 14 yrs (Thanks in no small part to Shimon and his buddy Yasser, but more specifically in the last 2 years - thanks ironically enough to Arik and his not-buddy Yasser, not to mention their mutual not-buddy Ismael and his fellow roof-jumpers, er, I mean roof throwers).

Back to the point. It's clear that Kasrils and (many/all?) of the players on his team do not change their spots, opinions or slogans even when they've been shown up. Abbas et al are no different. One would be hard pressed to tell the difference between even Abbas' and Arafat's speaches ... save perhaps for that annoying shaking from poison ... or was it parkinsons.

This leads to two fundamental points.
1) If we're doing all this "negotiating" and "debating", it must be for "our" own good, since we're having no(?) impact beyond "our" immediate area.
2) The definition of madness/stupidity is to repeat the same action twice, expecting a different result the second time. Surely this must call into question the entire approach, not only of our efforts to "engage" verbally, but more critically of the wider Israeli approach to it's local, friendly, all-we-want-is-peace, anti-Zionist, friends to the Jews, suicide bombing, baby-killing organisations?

Jak

Perhaps the SA Jewish community has made a mistake up to this point by paying so much attention to Kasrils and as a result giving him ever more publicity. Ignoring him from the start may have been a better strategy. But I think it's probably a bit late for that.

Does the average man on the SA street really believe the filth that comes out of his mouth?

Hillel

Does the average man on the street care?

Better, what influence does the "average man on the street" actually have? and to what extent is his influence and opinion dictated by the loudest shouters in the media?

Brett

Jak

In short, yes - the man in the street believes whatever is spewed out of an ANC representatives' mouth. Remember the whole outcry over Thabo's claim that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. People weren't upset because its embarresing to have a twit as a president - they were upset because a large part of the population believed him and decided to rip off their condoms and spread the fun. People are uneducated and have too little time, money or interest to examine issues, outside of their immediate field of relevence, critically. Tell them that Israel is the enemy and why shouldn't they believe it. tell them its apartheid and you bring the hatred home.

I've commented on this forum in the past regarding whether or not I believe SA Jewry should be vocal against Kasrils before, and its a complicated issue. My personal feelings are as they've always been - SA Jewry's tactic should be to ignore what Kasrils says and attack his credibility and consistency - much in the way this blog does. Its dangerous because its like kicking a dog really hard in the head, either he'll go away, or now you've really made him mad, and whilst Kasril's has been bad to us till now, there may be far more he can do. If we think for a second that he would endanger Jewish lives then it is best to just ignore him. But then again, if you believed that he has the power to do this then I ask you what you are still doing in SA.

Mike

I agree, we have handled Kasrils badly. But unfortunately we cant go back in a time a machine and change that. We have to deal with the monster that now is. I think Every Jew in this country and abroad should be putting as much pressure on the SA government as they can to get rid of him. That should be our goal.

Hillel, in response to your aren’t we just knocking our heads against a brick wall argument, I have 2 counters. Firstly, it is important to show Jews the other side. If we were not to respond on this blog or anywhere else for that matter than less educated Jews than you would have no other source of information. Secondly, through the blog we give Kasrils et al’s extremist positions international coverage. In the last few months there have been a stream of article in major international newspapers and journals denouncing South Africa for its flirtation with anti-Western tyrants. I believe that many of these articles have sourced info from blogs like ours.

Of course I feel that we are not doing enough. But at least we do what we can.

Dsinc

Kasrils is bad news. He is the antithesis of his ministerial position.

Dsinc

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/016250.php

Fitzgerald: The "Palestinian" "refugees"

Arab and Muslim states, or governments, although they now ask Israel to surrender still more, created the so-called "Palestinian refugee" problem. These were not classic refugees, hounded out, but rather people who left a war zone, for an Arab assault was anticipated even in 1947. They were confident that they would soon be returning. The evidence for this, written and spoken, is overwhelming. However, very few people bother to consult that evidence. Or if they do, they dismiss it with hardly a moment’s thought, since it does not correspond to their own deeply imbedded misinformation. An army of Arab propagandists, speaking both directly and through their willing Western megaphones (such as Jimmy Carter, morally the worst of our presidents), have fed them that misinformation for decades now.

One of the staples of modern journalism is the "Arab" or, in a little nunc-pro-tunc updating, the "Palestinian" family that "returns" to Jaffa or Jerusalem to stare wistfully at their old house. I remember one case a few years ago where someone came to "stare" at his "old house" and it turned out that the "old house" had been built long after 1948, and on an empty plot.

Why is it, do you think, that you never have stories showing Jews who fled Syria, or Iraq, or Morocco, or Yemen, under threat of pogrom replacing the usual insecurity and daily humiliations of life as a Jew in a Muslim Arab land, visiting their "old houses"? After all, Baghdad early in the 20th century was the second Jewish city in Asia (after Jerusalem). What happened to all those "houses"? No, the Jews do not make a fuss, do not demand compensation, do not make their huge losses a source of constant, obsessive media attention and U.N. focus. In Israel they integrated the Jewish refugees from Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Morocco, Libya, Egypt, and later from Iran, not to mention those who came from non-Arab and non-Muslim lands lands such as Ethiopia and Russia.

A Saudi columnist’s recent recognition that the so-called Arab refugees ought, more than 55 years after they left, be integrated into the Arab countries, is welcome -- but it is 55 years late. And if it is being suggested as part of a campaign to force Israel, in turn, to surrender still more of the territory to which it is entitled, both under the specific terms of the Palestine Mandate and under all the rules that have governed the aftermath of wars (as a thousand examples in the past century demonstrate -- start with Austria's Sudtirol becoming Italy's Alto Adige), then it is to be treated warily.

For the last forty years, all over the world, the Arab and Muslim propaganda machine has run circles around the naive Israelis, who seem incapable of understanding the nature of the enemy they face. Or perhaps they are unable for reasons of realpolitik to describe accurately that enemy, or even fear that doing so might damage morale: no one likes to be told that the threat to his nation is a permanent one, prompted by the immutable tenets of a belief-system with hundreds of millions of thoroughly brainwashed believers.

That same machine renamed the local Arabs, the ones in Gaza and in the "West Bank" (as the Jordanians had renamed the area of Mandatory Palestine they seized in the 1948 war), as the "Palestinian people." It had its effect. For most people, most of the time, know very little about anything. And if the area was once known, in the Western world, as "Palestine" and if there was now a group of people called the "Palestinians," well then -- that was it, wasn't it? The Jews must have taken their land, the land of those "Palestinians," unfairly. And all those poor "Palestinians" and their justifiably outraged supporters wanted was just a little bit, just a tiny bit, of what they should have had. And thus it was that tiny Israel, existing on 22% of the land area originally planned for Mandatory Palestine, created for the sole purpose of establishing the Jewish National Home (read the Preamble to the Mandate for Palestine), it is now the Arabs who, preposterously, use the exact same figures, claiming that "even if we get Gaza and the West Bank, that is only 22% of 'Palestine.'"

Someone in a Western country ought to have the courage to stand up and tell the Arab states that the “Palestinian” “refugee” “problem” is one that they created. And that it is up to them to solve.

Posted by Hugh at April 30, 2007 7:31 AM

Half Jew

some people are just concerned that he spends so much more time on this than his actual work.

Hillel

Half Jew, maybe you should be glad he (Kasrils) spends more time on this than his own work. Just imagine how buggered up SA and it's intelligence network would be if Kasrils actually had time to devote to spend "working" on that!

Alan

Kasrils the Stalinist Pig would have worked for Hitler had he had a chance to do so. The fact that he willingly went to an anti-Semitic country to receive TERRORIST, not military training speaks volumes about this self-hating pig.

He should be shot for engaging in acts of Terrorism. Instead Mandela, fool that he is, gave him a cabinet position while that other Jew-hater Tutu clapped enthusiastically.

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