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« The New and ‘Improved’ United Nations ‘Human Rights’ Council | Main | Ronnie Kasrils vs Benny Morris Round 2: Kasrils Seethes »

June 24, 2007


Brett Chatz

Well said Mike,

I agree with you 100%. There are no more shades of grey with this government. It is clear where SA foreign policy stands on this issue.


The irony is that apologist for the ANC's evil foreign policy often claim that it is 'payback time'. That the aNC is repaying those who helped it during 'the struggle'.
This situation proves that is not the reason.
It was Fatah/PLO that helped the ANC in those days, not Hamas.
So how do you explain the ANC supporting Hamas against Fatah?
Are the ANC/SACP just determined to support the most evil side in any conflict, anywhere?


Isnt it strange that Leon can talk of the "legitimate Fatah-led national unity government", when, in fact, it was a legitimate Hamas-led government. Are you forgetting that it was Hamas that won the elections? Or that the government was headed by a Hamas Prime Minister? Then how did it become Fatah-led?

Whatever Hamas might be, it was legitimately elected, and now illegitimately deposed. There is no law that gives Abbas the power to remove the government as he did. The SAn government should support not Fatah or Hamas, but democracy.



Hamas elected in a free and fair election I agree. They then entered into a national unity government with Fatah (not uncommon in politic). But what happened then? Hamas staged a military coup against the national unity government of which it was the majority member. This is not democratic behaviour. Not to mention the horrible Human Rights abuses that took place in this civil war.

President Abbas in terms of the Basic law (Palestinian equivalent of a constitution) dissolved the government. They law does allow for this in time of emergency. In terms of that same law he is entitled to install a care taker government. The catch is that it must be ratified by the legislature within 30. This is still to be done.

The PA’s source of legal authority is not clear cut. The PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinian people also has a say. They have now endorsed the Fatah led government. Unfortunately as always in the Middle East things are not that clear cut.


"Hamas elected in a free and fair election"
So was Hitler and the Nazi Party.



The coup was by the president against the unity government - by his dissolving the government, not by Hamas which attempted to subject the security forces in Gaza to the new government rather than allowing it to be a maverick group run by a warlord. Abuses? Yes, there were. And should be condemned.

Very interesting that you regard the PLO as "the sole representative of the Palestinian people." When it was, zionists refused to recognise it as such. Now the PLO does not exist! Except when it is convenient for Fatah to trot out its name (doing its history a great disservice in the process) to attempt to prove it own legitimacy. Oh, and except when its name is trotted out by zionists like you who want to prop up a pliant Palestinian.

Gary, by your logic, then, the result of a free and fair election is dictatorship and genocide? Let's scrap the SAn constitution, then, and install an emperor on the SAn throne. Before this democracy results in dictatorship and genocide too. Grow up! Your arguments are tired, worn and stupid.



Zionists like us did recognise the authority of the PLO. I supported the negotiations during Oslo when Israel negotiated with the PLO. I supported the falied negotiations with the PLO at Camp David and then in December 2000 under the framework of the Clinton parameters.

Gary is not saying that the result of a free and fair election is a dictatorship. He is saying that an election does not necessarily guarantee democracy. By itself it is not enough.


The worst part BlackSAn is the way you have grouped all Zionists into one collective.

Israel is a vibrant democracy with a strong left, strong right, and ruling centre (at the moment).

There are Zionist women who protest in Jerusalem every Friday calling for an end to the occupation.

There are Zionists like myself who accepted the PLO as the Palestinian voice and supported negotiations. There are Zionists who were against it.

Why can't you allow that there is diversity within Israeli opinion?

We want Israelis and Palestinians to get to an end of conflict settlement. They were close in December 2000. I believe there is more chance with Abbas than with Hamas. But that too may change.

Perhaps a single state solution is inevitable. Perhaps the Palestinians cannot unite and form the institutions necessary for statehood. You correct, the Fatah security situation is untenable with 12 different factions plus Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.

But perhaps we need to look out of the box and realise that the single state solution involves Jordan and the West Bank, not Israel and the West Bank?

The international Herald reported that debate has begun in Palestinian and Jordanian newspapers - and in official circles on both sides of the Jordan river - over a plan to incorporate West Bank Palestinians into a confederation with Jordan, creating a kind of bi-national state with two governing assemblies.

The Herald continued that, "Palestinians see Jordan's relative stability and affluence. They don't trust their own leaders to provide either and fear that it's the Israelis who will continue to dictate their future. That's why dozens of Palestinian business leaders, elected officials, and opinion-makers accepted King Abdullah's invitation to join Jordanians and Israelis in Aqaba last month to discuss peace plans for the region - and why confederation reportedly figured prominently in their discussion.

As for the Jordanians, former Prime Minister Abdel Salam Al Majali now argues that confederation would solve one of the kingdom's most pressing internal problems: A majority of Jordanians are of Palestinian descent, a fact that often draws Jordan into the maelstrom of Palestinian politics. The new state would feature two legislative assemblies. The first, based in the West Bank, would represent all Palestinians - including those who already live inside Jordan and hold Jordanian citizenship. The country's current assembly would be reserved for East Bank Jordanians, members of tribes which generally support the monarchy.

In addition, some Jordanians believe confederation would make Jordan a major regional player. Though King Abdullah will keep his distance when the plan is discussed publicly, it's unlikely that Al Majali would forward the idea without tacit approval from his king.

It's not just Jordan's elite that finds the idea appealing. Some within the Muslim Brotherhood, mostly Palestinian Jordanians with ties to Hamas, are inclined to consider the idea, since their presence within a new Palestinian assembly would give them greater legislative influence than they command within Jordan's Parliament."

I'm just thinking about this, though I still stand committed to the goal of an independant Palestinian state alongside Israel in Gaza and the West Bank.


Blacksan, I am no apologist for the PLO or Abbas. I could of hand write a doctoral thesis on the evils of Palestinian nationalism over the last 100 years with a chapter dedicated to Abu Mazen. I was just trying to be objective.

You seem to have no understanding of the complexity of Palestinian National authority. The PA represents Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. It was a creation of the Oslo accords which had numerous caveats about how it could not include terrorist groups. So in that sense you could argue legally that the Hamas government was actually illegitimate in terms of Oslo.

In addition the PA has basic laws that govern the Palestinian state in the making. It actually very similar to the Jewish Agency in pre-1948 Israel. But what of the millions of Palestinians in the Diaspora? Do they not also have a say? They are represented by the PLO. Interestingly the Oslo accords were not sign by the PA but the PLO on behalf of all the Palestinian people.

This really has nothing to do with Zionist propaganda. It is a factual question. Where does the source of Palestinian National Authority emanate? As I have said before the Middle east conflict is extremely complex and simply answers are almost always wrong.

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