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« Praise from Hitler | Main | The Iranian Magician and the Curse of Silence »

May 30, 2006

Comments

Yoel Ben-Avraham

As someone who lives on the "other" side" of that so-called "security barrier (which I happen to be in favour of), I think you have swallowed one of those famous 'Red Herrings'.

The demographics of "Us" and "Them" are already well served by the creation of that fence. Stop hiring the "migrant labour" and let them fend for themselves and security inside the fence will improve.

The REAL demographic threat to the desire to live in peace is the 1.5 million (and growing) Arab population within the fence. It is kind of hard to understand why hosting them inside Israel is "great" and proper, but letting 250,000 Jews lives outside the fence is wrong and immoral.

I look forward to your response!

Yoel Ben-Avraham
Shilo, Benyamin

Steve

Hi Yoel,
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I don't want to belabour this point too much because I dont know enough about security to pretend to be an expert. This is a side issue to my blog. Our purpose is to fight biased, irrational, and anti Israel reporting in the South African media - so dont take my support for withdrawal too personally.

I guess you are saying that Jews should be able to live in Judea and Samaria bc Arabs can live in Israel.

I too would love to know why the world cant understand this hypocrisy. From our side it's because we know that the Arabs won't allow it. Their insistence on attacking the Jews living there creates the need for us to create security measures which are seen by the world as a burden on the Palestinians and a creation of friction. We know that the friction is created by the Palestinians who insist on fighting.

We need to be seen as legally ending the occupation. We can't do that if we keep soldiers and checkpoints and Israelis only roads. Arabs can live in Israel because they know that we won't kill them like they will kill us if we remove all security measures but keep the Jewish residents.

Its no longer land for peace. Its freedom for security.

As for the 1.5 million Arabs in Israel, you are correct - it is a demographic threat. But their birth rate is almost countered by the religious community in Israel which is not too far behind the Arabs in numbers.

Also, we need to pursue creative territorial swap initiatives like we tried with Um EL Fahm.

Mike, you got a response?

Mike

I agree with Yoel and you Steve that allowing Arabs to live in Israel but denying Jews the right to live in Judea and Samaria is hypocritical. I would go further and say it is in fact racist. I firmly support the right of Israel’s non-Jewish minority to full citizenship and equal treatment before the law. Similarly I believe that those Jews who wish to live in Judea and Samaria should also enjoy the same equal rights as citizens of a future Palestinian state.

But idealism and reality in the Middle East are light years apart. As Steve has explained before, if we do not disengage from the Palestinians so that there is a distinctive border between the 2 peoples, the future of Israel as a Jewish state is threaten. Yoel, do not discount the force of the one-state solution. It is very much mainstream.

I myself have of late begun to doubt whether unilateral disengagement is in fact the optimal strategy for achieving this desired and urgent result. I promise to blog on it in dept in due course. Just need to order my thoughts.

On the issue of Israel Arab minority, I am concerned. As a member of a religious minority, I have great sympathy with their position. The government and Jewish citizens need to do much more to integrate these people into the Jewish state. They feel alienated and that is the greatest threat. They too have a place in the Zionist project.

Gary

For the dangers of the unilateral disengagement see
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008442

Steve

Perhaps then we should just wait for a time when we will be able to leave Jews living in the Palestinian areas and be able to withdraw the military. A time when there will be no need for checkpoints or Israelis only roads. A time when Jews in the Palestinian areas will receive the same rights that Arabs in Israel recieve.

But fear is that that time will never come. (I guarantee it.) And as we wait the calls for the one state solution, the boycotts, the divestment etc grow louder and become more and more mainstream.

I know what's right. It's right to allow Jews to live as a minority in a Palestinian state. But it won't happen and if we wait for it then I fear we may lose everything. Thats why i call it consolidation. It strengthens and unifies what we have, and cuts out things we will struggle to keep.

Its all so sad.

Yoel, would you want to live in a Palestinian state where Jews can live as long as they abide by the Palestinian laws (taxes etc) or are you opposed to the establishment of any Palestinian state on Judea and Samaria?

Just a Caring Individual

teehee...oh glorious settler...

http://lettersfromshilo.blogspot.com/2006/02/police-corruption-hits-home.html
Failing to convince the truck driver of their sincere desire to stop the blocking of their road, one brave Jew stepped out under the next concrete block to prevent the driver from placing it on the ground. Realizing how precarious the situation was, the driver jumped down to try and argue with the Jew, to try and convince him that it was a very dangerous thing for him to do, standing beneath two tons of hardened cement being held in the air by a relatively flimsy cable. While exchanging words, the Jew reached out and grabbed the driver pulling him in with him under the concrete block. Immediately tens of other residents rushed in from all sides, hemming the driver in so he could not escape. Eye witnesses claim that the big` husky truck driver was shaking like a leaf as he looked up at the concrete block swinging over all their heads. "Okay, okay I won't place any barriers!" cried the driver, "just let me out of here!" And true to his word he picked up the blocks he had succeeded in placing and drove away as fast as humanly possible, to put as much distance between himself and the "crazy settlers".

Yitzhar settlers attack police officers.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1148482082419&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Approximately thirty people whom police identified as students at the Od Yosef Hai yeshiva hurled rocks at the police and their patrol car, causing severe damage to the vehicle. The police officers, who said that they had been surrounded by the crowd and feared for their lives, fired one warning shot in to the air to disperse the crowd and escape.

--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
SO you defend the police and soldiers when Palestinian throw stones...now your own people are facing the heavy hands of your police and army and they are tryingto copu the Palestinians.

You are all VERY mixed up.

mike

Steve, I agree with your entire point. That is my position as well. I just don’t know if a unilateral withdrawal is enough. Promise I will elaborate after Yom Tov.

Just a caring individual, I support the rule of law above ideology. If settlers break the law, they should be punished. Attacking police is unacceptable.

Anti-UN

I saw pics of those Yeshiva students. They were wearing cowardly masks just like the terrorists do.

They should face the lawful consequences of their ways.

i Totally support the police and soldiers on these issues.

Gary

Ex-CIA Head: Gaza Pullback was"Worst," Olmert's Plan Even Worse

By Hillel Fendel

James Woolsey, a former CIA Director, explains succinctly why Ehud Olmert's second disengagement plan is a bad idea.

Writing for the Wall Street Journal on Monday, ex-CIA Director James Woolsey ripped apart Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's plan, which, he says, represents a determination to reinforce failure.

Woolsey sums up Olmert's plan as follows: "The withdrawal of 50,000 to 100,000 Israeli settlers from 90% to 95% of the West Bank and major portions of Jerusalem," together with a redeployment of the IDF near the security fence currently under construction.

He objects to the plan for the following reasons:

This approach Bank was tried in Gaza and has failed utterly, "producing the worst set of results imaginable."
Creating a West Bank that looks like today's Gaza would be many times worse, including rockets and shelling into virtually all of Israel.
Not only Israel, but also moderate Jordan, would be threatened by a terrorist state.
Israeli concessions make the U.S. look weak, and suggest that the U.S. is fleeing from terrorism once again instead of fighting it.
Three Israeli attempts at accommodation with the Arabs - Oslo, Lebanon, and Gaza - have failed in the past 13 years because they were based on the premise that only Israeli concessions can displace Palestinian despair. "But it seems increasingly clear that the Palestinian cause is fueled by hatred and contempt."
Israeli concessions indeed enhance Palestinian hope, Woolsey writes, "but not of a reasonable two-state solution--rather a hope that they will actually be able to destroy Israel... When they speak of "ending Israeli occupation" they mean of Tel Aviv."

He adds that a "two-state solution can become a reality when the Palestinians are held to the same standards as Israelis - to the requirement that Jewish settlers in a West Bank-Gaza Palestinian state would be treated with the same decency that Israel treats its Arab citizens. Until then, three failures in 13 years should permit us to evaluate the wisdom of further concessions."

Woolsey bases much of his opposition to Olmert's plan on the failure of last year's Gaza withdrawal. Among the "worst set of results imaginable" that it produced, he lists the following:
* A heavy presence by Al Qaeda, Hizbullah, and even some Iranian Revolutionary Guard units;
* street fighting between Hamas and Fatah, and now Hamas assassination attempts against Fatah's intelligence chief and Jordan's ambassador;
* rocket and mortar attacks against nearby towns inside Israel;
* and a perceived vindication for Hamas, which took credit for the withdrawal and thus helped Hamas's victory in the Palestinian Authority elections.

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