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« SAJBD Open Meeting | Main | Purim Sameach »

March 06, 2009

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Gary

It is important to realize a few things

1 We have the SAHRD to thank for this. It was they who brouight Israel-hatredback into South Africa in a gig way.
It was since the SAHRD came back from ISRAEL and whipped up as much hate as they could that the fires of anti-Semitism where re-ignited to this level.
Yes I know it had started before and I remember Durban 2001 and we have been living with Kasrils venom for 8 years now, but
the climate of Jew-hatred/Israel-hatred had been burning on a lower flame until the SAHRD rekindled it and it has been building up to this point since then.

2 If all Jews who supported Israel did indeed leave South Africa would economically collapse.
however I dont think these people would care.
Iran would be happy to be nuked in return for nuking Israel as the destruction of Israel is more important than their own survival and so the same with home grown Ahmadinejads like Masuku.
Look how Mugabe and ZANU PF were quite happy to reduce Zimbabwe to a wateland to stay in power.
Nihilist revolutionaries dont care about the welfare of their countries, they care about sowing destruction and building up the flames of 'revolution' only.

3 Their will be a temptaion to dismiss the likes of Masuku and say 'oh well, isnt he just a windbag?'
The same was said about Hitler.

Gary

Also

4 We must not expect Geffen/Isaacs/Berger/Achmat to condemmn Masuku for these statements.
The ONLY reason they condemmned Hajaj's statements was because she slipped up and forgot to use the codeword 'Zionist' instead of Jew.
As long as you stick to the word 'zionist' you can say absolutely whatever you like.

you could reproduce Meim Kampf and as long as your replaced the word 'Jew' with 'Zionist' it would today be seen by the Left as a 'progressive' publication.

Jaques Givet wrote 'Label a Jew a zionist and you are licensed to do whatever you want to them'.
Hell these Islamist fanatics and far-left maniacs support the killingof Jewish children in Israel as the label them 'zionists'.
They have congratulated Hamas etc on the killing of 'zionist children'.

Of course they are not anti-semitic.
Their is an elite club of Jews, the 'burn Israel' ultra left crowd who are exempt from all the punishments and hate meted out to zionists.
didnt Masuku say how much he likes Friedman and Kasrils, but all other Jews are his enemies who must suffer.

So the only Jews who are antitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are those who openly cryout for the destruction of Israel.

Anti-semitism-why would you say such a thing?

Gary

Masuku and Ronnie have been well trained by their Soviet mentors.
In the old Soviet Union, before it was freed in 1991 from the hellish shackles of Communism, the lives of Jews who supported Israel was also made hell.
Who will be our Natan Sharansky?

Dee

Wow. I can't believe that I am sitting here in 2009 and listening to this garbage being spouted in a supposedly democratic country.

Surely this is now bordering on incitement? Is anyone here a lawyer?

I can't believe these clowns can get away with this! I truly didn't understand just how deep antisemetism runs in this country, until this all started to surface a few months back.

I've always known people were antisemetic. I don't have a typically Jewish name, and I look Italian or Spanish, so I've quite often had people make nasty comments about Jews without realising that I am one. Gives one an intersting perspective on just how prejudiced many people are.

But the revelation that a powerful faction connected to the government is so rabidly anti-semetic truly chills me to the bone. Terrifying.

Gary

Dee, we need to start replacing that fear with anger.
That is the only way we will survive.

Lawrence

Yes I fear greatly that these COSATU ultra-left fascists could gain more power, as Gary pointed out, people in Germany dismissed Hitler, not seeing him as a threat but only a marginal rabble-rouser.

I also agree that the whole SAHRD thing has fuelled the flames of this rampant Jew-hatred, and that is why characters like Geffen and Isaacs are beyond the pale, and are to be ostracised, they are beneath contempt. Any (slight) differences between Geffen and his gang of bully boys and the likes of Friedman and Zapiro is only one of degree, not kind.

Posner never fails with his sardonic wit. Humour in the face of this absurdity of "progressive" Judenhass is a necessary foil to this pervasive barbarism that threatens us, as much as any more straight-faced and factual debunking. Anthony you should put so many of your posts, e-mails, letters and general commentary and experience on this Orwell meets Lewis Carol state of affairs into a short book. I think unfortunately the humour is lost on too many, but that's the way it is...I'm trying to think of an appropriately humorous and sardonic title, but I don't have your gift in this department..

I really fear greatly for the future of Jewry, both in the Diaspora and in Israel. I think coming events, as they have in the past, may well overtake us. If and when Israel launches an airstrike on Iran, whatever happens - even a best case scenario, it is going to be chaotic and scary. Scary for Israel and then the world at large, angry at Israel for daring to do anything to stop Iran from nuking Israel, may well lash out at Diaspora Jewry. I don't just mean the angry Muslim mobs in London and Paris, Michigan and Cape Town. I mean the increasingly shrill and hysterically anti-Semitic Left, and in places like SA, Venezuela, France and the UK especially, things can reach breaking point very very quickly..And Jewry is still so fast asleep, still in denial, nothing has been learned.

the pil

Anthony Great post, but I have to inform people that Anthony was personally insulted by Bongani. I think Bongani called Anthony an idiot or something like that. I think it should be taken as a compliment. Well done.

the pil

Another thing that was very scary was when Bongani threatened harm on all Zionists the audience other than the few Jews there clapped. So when crazy lefties call for justice they are not including me and you in that call, and apparently violence is not wrong if it gets rid of people who have opinions different to their own.

The PSC was very disturbed when SAUJS members were not intimidated. We should be killed and intimidated, how dare we stand up and heckle. One person at the talk told my friends and me to keep quite and we explained that when ones life is being threatened we have a right to speak. I expect people who support the values of humanity and human rights would be most uncomfortable with the sentiments of Bongani,but apparently not, she just felt uncomfortable that the Jews had the gall to stand up to a bully.

I think that this just exposes the hypocrisy of the left.

Sam

I find remarks like those of Gary and Lawrence unhelpful and deliberately obtuse. I don't think Jews are in "denial" - in fact we have extremely sensitive radar to the kinds of rumblings that may presage danger for the Jewish community.
Moreover, I don't think Masuku is a dangerous individual per se, notwithstanding his position in COSATU. And I think they (COSATU) have neither the willingness nor the capability to make lives difficult for ordinary Jews. He is more dangerous in terms of inciting ignorant mobs to hatred, which of course is pretty scary.

And yet it is silly to say "look what happened with Hitler". The logic here is faulty. Sure some windbags do wind up causing huge damage. But MOST windbags in this sphere are nothing more, and remain nothing more, than windbags.

However,I also agree that people like Isaacs and Geffen are causing immense harm, however unwittingly. But their ostracisation is a natural outcome of the process, and will be self-fulfilling.

Fat Bastard

"Their will be a temptaion to dismiss the likes of Masuku and say 'oh well, isnt he just a windbag?'
The same was said about Hitler."

Stupid logic sir. So because the same was said about Hitler we can never say the same about anyone again? Suddenly everyone's a Hitler?

ThePil - well done to you and saujs for showing such couragel. Makes me proud to be a South African Jew.

Nice post.

Gary

Sam, According to http://dictionary.reference.com
the word 'obtuse' may have several meanings.

ob⋅tuse   /əbˈtus, -ˈtyus/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uhb-toos, -tyoos] Show IPA
–adjective 1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
3. (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
4. indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.


Pray which of the four definitions do my and Lawrence's 'remarks' fall under?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sam

Gary - perhaps obtuse was not the best adjective.
If I were to choose, though, I would go with "rounded at the extremity". I think your views are a little extreme (is this an oxymoron?), which is to say, on the far end of a continuum. Rounded, because your comment is not "sharp" given the faulty logic that I and FB have pointed out.
Maybe a more "nuanced" approach could lead to more observant and a less dull commentary? (a little SAHRD humour there).

Lawrence

I don't see any fault in the logic, who is saying "suddenly everyone's a Hitler" as FB put it? This itself is illogical. Somebody who hates the Jews as much as Masuku clearly does, and wants to do away with Israel clearly has a lot in common with Hitler, in intent and mentality if not in capability, thank God. How does alluding to the fact that Jew-haters like Masuku and those like-minded are uh Jew-haters who wish ill on Jews and Israel, and it would be very bad for us if they ever got more power and influence, translate to "suddenly everyone's a Hitler"?

It doesn't, and neither Gary nor myself implied or stated as much. There are however lots of people in SA (and not just SA) who think just like Masuku and his kind and it is worrisome. It is not illogical to point out that marginal and viscious anti-Semites may well gain more influence in the future, feeding off growing anti-Semitism among the public at large, because it has happened in the past and not just in Nazi Germany. I can think of several instances in South America for example, from the last century.

Gary and I did not say they will definitely gain power, with all that that implies, just that it is certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility that leftwing fascists of the Masuku variety could come to wield power in SA, and they could make life hell for Jewry. It is of course speculative, but there is nothing remotely illogical about it. Speculation, and speculation grounded on harsh disturbing present-day realities by itself is not illogical.

Sam writes:"Moreover, I don't think Masuku is a dangerous individual per se, notwithstanding his position in COSATU".

I have to disagree, Masuku is a very dangerous individual precisely because of his position in COSATU and because he hates us so much.

As for Jews being or not being in denial, I obviously was generalising, obviously none of us posting up here are in denial. However many Diaspora Jews, especially in the English-language world - America, Australia and segments of SA Jewry for example are definitely in denial (especially American Jews). This is much less the case in Europe, UK and South America. Most Jews I have contact with in SA have their heads in the sand, but that's just me. I guess we all have different experiences in this regard and know different people. In the US (and of course they are the biggest number) it would be denial to deny that they are for the most part in denial! But Sam has a point here, I should not have generalised too much.

Empress Trudy

Well in either case, you all sound like a pot full of slowly warming lobsters.

Brett

Gary and Sam.

Would you two like to get a room?

You're arguing across ideas but you agree on the fundamental concept thaat this is bad news for the future saftey of SA Jewry. Sam, whether or not this is because Bongani might have some pull in irrelevent, if he incites mobs the Jews who are attacked with be as attacked as if he had sent some sort of secret police. Gary, the Hitler analogy, whilt is may have some merits is far from accurate. The biggest differnce is that now we have Israel. Israel cannot prevent random mob and terrorist attacks on Jews but state sanctioned genocide is not likely. If I were to make a dictatorship analogy I would say SA has Zimbabwean tendencies.

Gary

That is the point Brett- the Nazi analogy is very relevant because these people want to foce Israel to dissolve and agree to a unitary 'one state' 'Palestine' where Jews will be minority (after several million Arabs enter under the so-called 'right of return').
Then the Jews will be massacred Rwanda style.
The plan b is to nuke Israel from Iran and the world will do nothing because Israel has been so demonized the world will see it as deserving it's fate.
So either way the aim is a second holocaust.

As regards your comment 'If I were to make a dictatorship analogy I would say SA has Zimbabwean tendencies'.
We will see with the coming elections.
If the IEC sit on the results for a few days before anouncing the ANC have over two thirds or if the ANC calls for the annulment of results in areas where they have underpeformed then will know SA is indeed another Zimbabwe

The Blacklisted Dictator

s Masuku a "Hitler"?

It is too soon to tell but my view is that post FIFA 2010, all hell could break loose in South Africa. And if it does, as a Yid from London, I wouldn't want to be living here.

Also remember that Hitler formed the Nazi party in the early 1920's. It was 20 years later before Jews were being incinerated.

2029? Who knows what sort of political position Comrade Bongani Masuku might hold in sunny SA?

viva antisemitism viva
blacklisted

The Blacklisted Dictator

Lawrence,
Thanks for your kind words.
I have a few "Sermons on The Table Mountain" from the Cape Messiah available.
You can email me at aposner@iburst.coc.za and I will send them to you

Brett

Gary,

You make a fair point, I just feel you give Bongani way more ability for forward thinking than I would

Sam

I think all hell could break loose DURING Fifa 2010 if Israel qualifies, as looks likely. We could see an international boycott if Israel is allowed to play, and of course a COSATU boycott during the games involving them, during which Bongani could shoot to intenational prominence, greatly increasing his political stature. On the back of that he could gain an influential government position, occupying a platfrom from which he could credibly call for expulsion of Zionists, starting with the Chief Rabbi.
It all depends on his ambition..

Benjamin

The Cossacks
by Linda Pastan

for F.

For Jews, the Cossacks are always coming.
Therefore I think the sun spot on my arm
is melanoma. Therefore I celebrate
New Year's Eve by counting
my annual dead.

My mother, when she was dying,
spoke to her visitors of books
and travel, displaying serenity
as a form of manners, though
I could tell the difference.

But when I watched you planning
for a life you knew
you'd never have, I couldn't explain
your genuine smile in the face
of disaster. Was it denial

laced with acceptance? Or was it
generations of being English--
Brontë's Lucy in Villette
living as if no fire raged
beneath her dun-colored dress.

I want to live the way you did,
preparing for next year's famine with wine
and music as if it were a ten-course banquet.
But listen: those are hoofbeats
on the frosty autumn air.

The Blacklisted Dictator

Dear Patrick Craven,

Surely Zionists are far worse than Hitler?? I really don't know why some jittery Jews are getting so upset by Cosatu's analogy!

I refer you to the attached..

"What Hitler did - and I don't call it a massacre or anything of the sort... What Hitler did was 'incidents' of the kind that happen to any minority in the world.
(Egyptian expert on Israeli studies Ahmad Hammad, who heads the Hebrew Studies department at 'EinShamsUniversity.)

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD227209

viva
blacklisted

Gary

"Our thanks to the late Hitler who wrought, in advance, the vengeance of the Palestinians upon the most despicable villains on the face of the earth. However we rebuke Hitler for the fact that the vengeance was insufficient".
Al Akhbar (April 18, 2001)

Ken Pagel

I am not a jew, but I wish I were.They are God's chosen. They are extremely intelligent and perform a myriad of charitable functions. I am extremely sad that so many left SA because they are the soul of any nation

Andrew Mainz

ken Pagel...........in my view, you are an honourary Jew and and eliquent man who does not embrace hate speech.
Andrew Mainz

Margie in Tel Aviv

I know that this is long after the debate but Gary's shocking comment about congratulating Hamas on killing Zionist children passed unchallenged.

Who said it? What were the consequences?

Andrew M.

Bongani Masuku is a rabid hater and again has been permitted to prey on the few, the minority Jews who have never wronged him. Who is this uneduicated imbicile to self annoint himself to the thrown of racisim that he says he so barverly fought. Jews were good to the Black majority and Bongo knows that, but being the politicaql expediant runt he is, he has chosen to chastise us to his end. If he uses the Fifa 2010 stage and is not stopped, then the message is clear...........All Jews need to leave and allow Masuku to take blame single handedly to the demise of decency, commerce and culture in beautiful south africa.
Given the platform, this lunatic nut-job masuku will single handedly ruin the games and make things extremely uncomfortable for Jews, and where is the silent Government / legal system to protect against hate? It does not exist in S.A. The Jews need to take care of themselves and get their smart heads out of the sand or face possible expulsion, persecution or both.

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