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« Why Israel ≠ Apartheid from a South African Perspective | Main | Islamophobia - Rational Fear or Prejudiced Hatred? »

March 20, 2008

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BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
How do you know that Zapiro's cartoons do not "stem from the same obviously anti-Semitic motives as the ones from the Arab world".

Is it not possible for a Jew to have the same "anti-Semitic motives as the ones from the Arab world" ?

Of course Zapiro will deny that he is antisemitic. But doesn't Ahmadinejad also deny it ?

Steve

Well I suppose I am giving him the benefit of teh doubt based on his anti-ANC background of opposing all forms of authority.

Are you suggesting I said that simply because he is Jewish?

Gary

Opposing all forms of authority?????
I've never seen him opposing Hamas in the Palestine Authority, ort for that matter the ruling regimes of Iran, Syria, Libya, and Sudan?
And by the way, I havent seen anything by his serpentine pen about the current Chinese supression of Tibetan protests either!

Gary

OK I was wrong in the last example. He just did do a very quick, half-hearted sketch about China and Tibet, but without the passion and detail in his Israel-bashing cartoons.
The fact still remains he has NEVER criticized an Islamic regime or terror network.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
As you have shown, Zapiro's cartoons can be construed as being antisemitic.
I suppose that if they are construed in this light, some people might conclude that Zapiro is antismetic.
I doubt whether such cartoons would see the light of day if they were being penned by a non-Jew and as a result the " He's Jewish" debate cannot be ignored.
Of course , Ronno Einstein has also used his Jewish identity to promote the " Israeli / Nazi" slur. I doubt whether the M&G would have been so willing to print it if he had been a Christian.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
I think Zap once did a fairly mild cartoon re Iran's holocaust denial conference.
But 99.99% of the time, he has lapped-up Ronno Einstein's foreign policy agenda re the Middle East.
Has Zapiro drawn a cartoon condemning the way that women are persecuted in Iran and Saudi Arabia ? I haven't seen such "artwork" and can only conclude that PC Zapiro won't confront such issues because he refuses to alienate the MRN/FXI/MJC/PSC/M&G/RONNO EINSTEIN/AZIZ PAHAD/COSATU etc etc.

Gary

Actually methinks Zaptrash might actually be lacking in some originality here and simply mass producing what he learned from the jihad school of cartooning.
Since these Arab (and Soviet) cartoons predate Zaptrash, one could conclude that Zaptrash's work is not 1005 original.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

The Nazi/Israeli analogy is particularly ironic when one remembers that it was actually the Mufti of Jerusalem (Palestinian leader) who was so friendly with Hitler. I wonder whether Zapiro is acquainted with this particular historical snippet.
When I listened to Ronno Einstein's "Beyond Victimhood" lecture a while back at Wits University, this fact was, for some reason or another, left out of his historical analysis of the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict. Does anybody know why??

Steve

You right Gary,
I shouldn't have said that he opposes all forms of authority - I should have said that he opposes all forms of Western authority.

I think he has an irrational hatred of Israel and the USA. I think he has an irrational romance for terrorist murderers.

I don't think he is a decent man willing to listen to both sides of a story. I think he is ultra prejudiced against Israel and the US.

I think his cartoons send the same message as the anti-Semitic Arab cartoons. I just don't think his motivation is anti-Semitism.

Dictator - Jewish cartoonists may push the boundary more often but I dont agree with your sentimen that its only published because he is Jewish. Brandon from the Sunday Times has cartoons that are just as bad. There is also that Australian cartoonist from The Age who is even worse.

Perhaps I have a less rosy view of the mainstream press than you have. I believe these cartoons pass as legitimate in the mainstream press regardless of who pens them. In fact I think that they are encouraged.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
I believe that Kasrils and Zapiro have legitimized the Israeli / Nazi slur and, by doing so , have allowed other non-Jewish cartoonists to jump on the bandwagon.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
You write that you don't believe that Zapiro's "motive is antisemitism".
What is your evidence for this statement ?

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Steve,
If you are suggesting that Zap's cartoons are antisemitic then a logical conclusion would be that Zap is actually antisemitic. It seems to me that you are reluctant to deduce something that is self-evident.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Mike/ Steve,

Might be interesting to blog the article that appears on Pg 3 of The South African Jewish Report...

Re The SAJBD meeting with Mbeki, Aziz Pahad etc on March 10th in Pretoria, David Saks writes:

(1) Strong possibility that Durban 2 will be hosted by South Africa.
(2) SA amabassador to UN and SA Foreign Affairs Dept " have agreed to work with the SAJBD in the lead-up to the event"
(3) Aziz Pahad stressed that antisemitism mustn't surface at Durban 2.
(4) Avrom Krengel suggests that NGO section of the conference be held at a different venue.

With regard to the above, I have 3 questions:
(1) Did The SAJBD discuss how Durban 2 could be stopped from turning into an anti-zionist hate fest ?
(2) Did SAJBD discuss why Israel , Canada and USA were boycotting Durban 2 ?
(3) Should The SAJBD be "working" with the SA govt in the lead-up to Durban 2 ?

Gary

Zaptrash also did a horrible cartoon demonizing the leaders of the free west who have taken a stand against terror and islamofascism:
Bush, Sarkozy, Brown.Zaptrash is a classic of the Islamofascist-loving lefty described in Horowitz' "Unholy Alliance".

Gary

"Aziz Pahad stressed that antisemitism mustn't surface at Durban 2"
Unfortunately my concept of what anti-Semitism is differs very greatly from what Pahad and SAJB see as anti-Semitism:
As far as I am concerned demonizing our brothers and sisters in Israel and justifying their murder IS anti-Semitism.
time to clarify the truth about the lie that there is a difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism
The enemies of Israel want the physical elimination of the Jewish people from the Land of Israel. This constitutes anti-Semitism.
The point is that they want a Judenreihn "Palestine" the same way that Hitler wanted a Judenreihn Europe.
The anti-Zionists claim that they are not anti-Semites but that think the only country on the earth that must be annihilated is Israel.
The anti-Zionists claim that they are not anti-Semites but that think the only country on the earth that must be annihilated is Israel.

The anti-Zionists claim that they are not anti-Semites but that the only children on earth whose being blown up is okay if it serves a good cause are Jewish children.

As regards the so-called 1 state solution favoured by so many sophisticated leftwing intellectuals today, we can discuss this all day and all night , but dismembering Israel into a single Arab dominated state means a second holocaust.

It means methodical massacre of millions of Jews , of hundreds of thousands of Jewish children.

Anyone who pushes for this '1 state solution' is actually pushing for a second holocaust.

Denying a nation's right to exist is genocidal racism, akin to Nazism, hence in my opinion , anti-Zionism is Nazism.

Only the hard-hearted, hate-filled and cowardly will deny Israel the right to exist and defend herself

Gary

If Zuma does sue Zaptrash then I'll support Zuma in this 100%
Better to silence Zaptrash's hideous little pen for good.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
What I find hysterically funny/bizarre/totally meshuggah is the SAJBD's conceit/naivety that they will, in some undefined way, be able to influence the course of Durban 2.
Of course The Krengels and Wendy Kahn "take a very nice pic" in the SAJR with Aziz Pahad and Mbeki but.....

Gary

To anyone who thinks that someone born Jewish cannot be anti-Semitic.
Just read about Max Naumann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Naumann

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
Re Jewish antisemitism, take a look at:

http://www.thejewishadvocate.com/this_weeks_issue/columnists/reinharz/?content_id=2305
or just google...
Fighting Jewish anti-Semitism By Shulamit Reinharz

Mediocrates

What prattle. Hate speech is what it is. If you heap image after image that reiterates the same blood libel hate speech over and over and over then you are in fact an anti semite, a racist and a tool. The claim that it's idiotic aesthetic completely different from the Nazis that engendered it is not only insipid but it's patronizing. "All my images are racist trash yet I am not".

Right. SA Jews will debate and navel gaze themselves right into a new pogrom.

Mediocrates

And let me add that Durban II will be a joke to the world, at least that part of it that thinks rationally. It will be one gigantic screaming hate filled antisemitic mob. Of course western Liberals and bloggers will be thrilled, the Arab world will construe it as truth handed down by Allah and the South Africans themselves will be torn between defending it and making excuses for it.

Good luck with that.

Gary

You know what actually upsets me the most about these type of Jews is that among no group in the world are there so many individuals who so single-mindedly attempt to damage the group into which they were born.
I mean would you ever find a Black person doing violently anti-Black racist cartoons that appear on the KKK website?
Would you ever get violently Black-hating Black spewing forth hate against their own at White Supremacist rallies?
What is it about the Jewish people that we are unique in having so many born into our nation, that hate their own nation with such a passion?

Brett

It was Jews who lets the Romans into Jerusalem
Most agree Torquemada was Jewish
Peace Now and the like throw stones at soldiers protecting their lives and demand removing checkpoints who's only job is keeping suicide bombers out Jewish areas.

Jews can be anti semitic and the can do and they can do serious damage to the nation, in fact (for the religiously inclined) they are the only ones who can cause damage to the nation. Zapiro's hated scares me far more than any Arab/Australian/European anti-semitism.

Gary

You are absolutely right, Brett, if we go further we see how the most rabid allies of the Greco-Syrians during the wars of the Hasmoneans against the Greeks were Jews.
We can go back further to the Korach and the Erev Rav.
It is predicted in Isaiah that our destroyers will come from within.
Nevertheless a psychological study of Jewish anti-Semitism/anti-Zionism is long overdue.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Gary,
I have just been reading Paul Johnson's devastating essay on Marx in his book "Intellectuals". It is a brilliant critique.
Johnson writes about Marx's virulent antisemitism and I think it helps explain the attitudes of many Jewish ANCronies. Ronno Einstein is perhaps the best example but, as you know there are a host of others.
For Marx, the greatest evil was capitalism. For the ANCronies it is Zionism. And of course, " The Jew" is central to both.
If Marx was alive today he would be condemning Zionism, and like so many other Jewish radicals, would also be immolating himself at the altar/cult of Islamic fundamentalism.

Benjamin

Reading through the comments, I got a little depressed. Gary and Blacklisted, before you end putting Zapiro in the same category as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad read this or this. Sometimes I despair that blogs are forums that are used to reinforce existing ideas rather than challenge them.

There is a subtlety that I think you have missed when looking at these cartoons: the difference between a picture of an Israeli dressed as a Nazi and an Israeli politician dressed as a Nazi. The one attacks a people the other a person. I don't think anyone here will complain about Mbeki dressed as Stalin.

Zapiro refused to carry a gun in the South African army he seems against most military action and I would geuss on a political spectrum he is probably slightly right of a passivest. That is a guess, I think his position on Israel is closest to this cartoon. The ones you have posted are certainly shocking (I felt almost winded after reading them), but I think you mis-categorize them.

Brett

Benjamin

Firstly, on what basis do you say that Zapiro's opinion is closest to the cartoons you posted as opposed to Steve's? Are you just a nice guy and giving him the benefit of the doubt? If so, what made him draw the above cartoons, such sentiment must come from somewhere?

Secondly, I personally couldn't care less what he really believe deep down in his anarchist little hart. If he is spewing out hate speech, offending, insulting and endangering his and our people then he is a danger and an enemy, regardless of whether he is doing it for money, attention or even a will to make the world a happier place.

Thirdly, even the cartoons you claimed to represent his views are brazen faced lies. I refer to the smart-bomb one.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
I am putting Zap in the Ronno Einstein EINSTEIN category. If it depresses you perhaps you should take Prozac?
Are you suggesting that Ronno Einstein is not in the same category as Ahmadinejad?

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
I mentioned in a previous comment that Zap did a cartoon about Ahmadinejad's holocaust denial conference.
Please show me some cartoons in which Zap satirizes Islamic fundamentalism, suicide bombing or the persecution of women in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
If you can't then perhaps you will get more depressed or more disdainful ??

Gary

Benbjamin writes of ZAPTRASH "he seems against most military action".
He has never imposed terror against Israeli women and children.
How peace-loving does that make him?

Gary

ZAPIRO, Fat Ronno and Ahmadinejad are ALL in the same categoree because they have made it clear that they would like to see Israel drowned in blood and fire.

Dr Segal

As for the central premise, that of Zapiro being anti-Semitic, I want to dissent from the crowd here.

I am Zionist and Jewish. I think that Zapiro's hostility towards Israel is the same as his hostility towards the US. He therefore does not single out Israel only. He targets the US probably more than he targets Israel and he targets the ANC more than both. (Although, it is more relevant for a South African leadership - but at the same time he comes from an ANC family and is therefore criticising his 'own').

His children attend a Jewish Day school in Cape Town. I don't imagine an anti-Semite would want their children to go to a Jewish school.

Benjamin

Firstly, on what basis do you say that Zapiro's opinion is closest to the cartoons you posted as opposed to Steve's?

I take the position based on the vast majority of his work, his history and interviews he has given. I know him mostly from his Cartoons, thats superficial, however on that basis your analysis is equally so.

If so, what made him draw the above cartoons, such sentiment must come from somewhere?

Well the one clearly came from anger over the Lebanese war, of course I have no idea exactly what he was thinking.

Who is Ronnie Einstein?

Please show me some cartoons in which Zap satirizes Islamic fundamentalism, suicide bombing or the persecution of women in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
If you can't then perhaps you will get more depressed or more disdainful ??

I don't know of any, there might be some. That however is not an argument. Imagine if I put up a comment: show me a post where Its Almost Supernatural criticizes Israel militry action. If you cannot does that mean it invalidates criticism, on this blog, of despotic Islamic fundamentalism? Of course not. Not opposing something does not mean supporting it. I didn't mean to be disdainful.

Thirdly, even the cartoons you claimed to represent his views are brazen faced lies. I refer to the smart-bomb one.

This I think is the core of the argument: Zapiro believes this. He doesn't think this is a lie.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,

RonNO Einstein is South Africa's Minister of Intelligence.

Re: Zap's refusal to satirize Islamic fundamentalism, suicide bombing or the persecution of women in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Your analogy re 'Supernatural" is inappropriate because it is quite clear what the blog's mission is.. it is stated openly.. "exposing anti-Israel bias in the SA media and promoting a balanced SA foreign policy towards the Middle East."
However, what is Zap's mission?? As a political satirical cartoonist, one would imagine that, inter alia, whe would satirize islamic fundamentalism, suicide bombing, persecution of women in Saudi Arabia and Iran. But Zap doesn't. Why ? Because he has an "undeclared"
mission and that is to support Islamic fundamentalism in its jihad against Israel.
If Zap put his "mission statement" next to his signature, I would disagree with him but I might, at least, respect him for his honesty.


BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Dr Segal,
If Zap's cartoons are antisemitic then it might well be logical and reasonable to deduce that he is actually antisemitic.
We do not know precisely why Zap sends his kids to a Jewish day school. Perhaps they receive the best education in the area and Zap wants them to acquire the best? However, I sincerely hope that they are NOT shot by Islamic terrorists (please refer to Zap's recent cartoon which is situated in a Jewish school and legitmizes the shooting of the yeshivah kids. )

Gary

OK, ZAPIRO is not anti-Semitic, he only the enjoys the killing of "Zionist children".
He only hates Jews who live in Israel.
He only wants 40% of the world's Jews to die.
Because that's the perecnetage of world's Jews who live in Israel.

Gary

OK, ZAPIRO is not anti-Semitic, he only the enjoys the killing of "Zionist children".
He only hates Jews who live in Israel.
He only wants 40% of the world's Jews to die.
Because that's the perecnetage of world's Jews who live in Israel.

Benjamin

Blacklist, I don't follow your argument about declared policy, I don't see how it relates to being able to disregard Zapiro's cartoons based on ones he hasn't drawn?

Let me make my point more clear, the statement: Please show me some cartoons in which Zap satirizes Islamic fundamentalism, suicide bombing or the persecution of women in Iran and Saudi Arabia. is a form of a Ad hominem attack.

If person Z proposes statement A, you cannot dispute argument A by saying that person Z hasn't proposed statement B.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
Sorry mate but I have not studied philosophy at university so I am ill-equipped to discuss your "ad hominem" argument.
Moreover, I reckon that most readers on this blog will conclude that I responded to your "Supernatural" argument effectively.
Do you also dispute my "Zapiro>Ronno Einstein>Ahmadinejad" argument?

Benjamin

Neither did I study philosophy at university (that stuff makes my head hurt), I do however subscribe to basic rules of logic which is all an ad hominem argument is about. If you want to criticize someones idea, criticize the idea not the individual.

You made a lot of points about Ronno and Ahmadinejad, not sure exactly which one you are referring to.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
It is reasonable to criticize Zapiro...
(1) He signs his cartoons "Zapiro". He is interviewed in the press and has a public persona.
(2) He would be unemployed as a cartoonist in South Africa if he lampooned Hamas and suicide bombing.
(3)He sympathizes with Islamic fundamentalism and the jihad against Israel.
(4) He equates Israeli with Nazis.
(5) He recently drew a cartoon which seems to legitimize the murder of Israeli schoolchildren.
(6) He is on the Ronno Einstein bandwagon. (Ronno Einstein is on Ahmadinejad's bandwagon).
etc etc etc

Benjamin

Blacklist,

(1) Completely agree. It is reasonable to criticize Zapiro.
(2) Doubt it.
(3) He disagrees with Israeli foreign policy, he doesn't (as far as I know) support Islamic jihad or suicide bombing.
(4) He attacks that foreign policy by clothing Israeli leaders in Nazi uniforms.
(5) I think we argued enough about that one.
(6) Given the cartoons he has drawn of Ahmadinejad he isn't a fan, no idea about Ronno.

If our only disagreement is on the interpretation of the cartoons then I think we are arguing semantics and there is not too much to argue. I would agree that anyone who supports the murder of school children or suicide bombings is amoral and should be condemned.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin,
Re
(1) I conclude that you now agree that it is reasonable to criticize Zapiro
"the individual" and not just his ideas.
(2) You are being naive. A cartoon criticizing Islamic fundamentalism in the Cape Times?? What planet are you living on?
(3) I wrote that he "sympathizes" . Didn't use the word "support"
(4) Not only Israeli leaders. He implies that Israeli soldiers are Nazis.
(6) Like Ronno, he equates Israelis with Nazis.
You wrtite:
"I would agree that anyone who supports the murder of school children or suicide bombings is amoral and should be condemned." I believe that Zapiro has implicitly, in a recent cartoon, "supported" the murder of Israeli schoolchildren. If you concur, then you also condemn Zapiro.

Bigben

Ronno subcribes to a form of thought that says that everything is a class struggle. Anything outside of that is nonesense. In his view anti-semitisim cannot be solved by nationalism (Israel) or religion (being Jewish)only by the whole world being communist. Extreme forms of this view see the Jews as being only figments of the capatalist enterprise. Ronno is anti-semitic by ideology.

On Zap, Nathan Sharansky talks about the 3D's when having to seperate legitimate Israel crit from anti-semitism. Demonisation, Double standards and De-ligitamisation.

Clearly zap is guilty of the first one. Even if he does critize other regimes sometimes he never uses the Nazi analogy, not on Darfur, not on China and not on Burma.

On the second you could say that he is often guilty on this attacking Israel and even Jews even when there is nothing about it in the press, not to mention his neglect of Islamism.

However on the third and perhaps most important point and dont think that I have ever seen him say that Israel does not have a right to exisist or anything actualy anti-zionist. Although his stuff is frequently used by people who have exaclty this agenda. It seems to me that he falls into that very left wing Jewsih agenda that indulges in anti-semitism but never quite goes over the edge.

In short I dont think we can quite equate him with Ronno or Immadinthehead of Iran.

He may be anti-animal cruelty but that does not make him completely a vegitarian.

Brett

I say again

Does it really matter what his personal beliefs are? If his works are those being used rabid anti semites then his cartoons are anti semitic. We've had 40 odd posts trying to get into the head of Zapiro when its not the head doing any damage its the hand.

Benjamin

Blacklist

No one is above criticism but it is illogical to criticize Zapiro because of what he hasn't drawn. I don't think Zapiro has supported murder of any innocent civilians. So no I don't concur.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benajmin,
Don't you think that Islamic fundamentalism, Hamas, suicide bombing, sharia law, the persecution of women in Iran and Saudi Arabia , the persecution of journalists in Iran etc are interesting subjects for a political satirical cartoonist who is concerned about the Middle East ?
You have to ask yourself why Zap does not satirize these subjects! It is not "illogical" to raise this point. Zap is extremely biased.
It is evident that Zapiro is on the MRN/MJC/PSC/FXI bandwagon and I certainly do nor see any difference between his attitudes towards the Middle East and Ronno Einstein's.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Bigben and Benjamin,
It is certainly worth considering the South African "intellectual" milieu in which Zap operates.
I re-iterate... Would the Cape Times (or M&G) publish a cartoon which really satirized Hamas etc ?
It is an extremely relevant question.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

Benjamin
You have an idiosyncratic interpretation of Zap's recent 'School kids" cartoon. I think that virtually nobody sees it through your prism.

BLACKLISTED DICTATOR

RE: INSULTING CARTOONS.

Dear Na'eem Jeenah and Jane Duncan,

Does The FXI/PSC agree with Amyan al-Zawahri ? It is important to know where precisely the Freedom of Expression Institute/ Palestine Solidarity Committee stands on this issue...

"Like bin Laden, the al-Qaeda second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri. issued a threat against those countries in which cartoons of Muhammad were published, saying that "They cannot insult our prophet and support Israel and then expect to live in peace in the countries."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1205420761278&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

So... should the Danes live in peace or should they be bombed into submission?

Btw, are we safe in South Africa?

viva
blacklisted

ps; I have cc'd Prof Anton Harber (Wits School Of Journalism) as I know that he is particularly concerned about freedom of expression. Perhaps he can write a joint paper with Steven Friedman ?

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